The PPA should not fight for licensing

[Cleaner44]

Originally Posted by PPAdc

All -- I wanted to give you a heads up that on May 24th the PPA lobbying team, 30 PPA State Directors/Board members, and several poker pros will be meeting with targeted Representatives and Senators in Washington D.C. We intend to meet with approximately 120 offices.

We had planned to hold this "Fly In" in September of this year. But given the recent events, we accelerated our timetable so that we can aggressively respond to the need for a regulated U.S. market place for the American player. There has been a crush of emails and phone call made to Congress from concerned poker players since April 15, the PPA "Fly In" will keep up the grassroots pressure and will put a human face on the issue for members of Congress.

This will be our 3rd sponsored Washington D.C. "Fly In" with previous ones being held in '07 and '09.

I am also personally encouraging any poker player who is able to come to Washington D.C. on May 24th to meet with their member of Congress. We will be providing information within the next 24 hours so that individuals have all the tools they will need to set up their meetings.

If you think that you will come to DC let us know at dcflyin@theppa.org. If we are already arranging a meeting with your Rep or Senator we can coordinate our meetings schedules.

The PPA will also host a public press conference on May 24th (Time TBD) which we welcome everyone to attend. If there is a groundswell of interest in coming to DC on this date, this could very well become a poker rally outside the U.S. Capitol.

We hope you will consider joining us in Washington on May 24th. Again, if you plan to attend, let us know at dcflyin@theppa.org.

Thank you but I will decline your offer to join you in this farce. Growing the government and taking money from poker players to give to politicians is not a good goal in my opinion. If you ever get around to protecting the rights of poker players please let us know.

[Cleaner44]

Originally Posted by richp

I joined the PPA many years ago. I play(ed) on FTP every day.

But I became complacent with the status quo.

This is an infrringement of my rights, and the law needs to change NOW.

I'm a 52-year old lawyer with time to spare. I'm willing to get involved.

Nice to see that a lawyer thinks that rights are being infringed. I agree. The law does need to change. Rights should be protected, not infringed with the cooperation of the PPA.

[TheEngineer]

Here's a letter I wrote to Rand Paul last year. Maybe it will help with some perspective:

Dear Dr. Paul,

On behalf of the Commonwealth’s tens of thousands of poker players and enthusiasts, I am writing to share with you my concerns over your statements and actions regarding online poker legislation. Specifically, I am concerned about statements you made to Liberty Maven last year. I am also concerned about anti-poker crusader James Dobson’s endorsement of your candidacy.

In your August 19th interview with Liberty Maven, at http://libertymaven.com/2009/08/19/r...rty-maven/6911, you stated that you would oppose pending Congressional legislation licensing online poker sites. Unfortunately, it is not that easy. The Justice Department has been seizing funds, and it now appears that the solution for poker players will go through the Congress. That is why Rep. Ron Paul is cosponsoring these bills.

Additionally, James Dobson’s endorsement of your candidacy is a major concern. Dr. Dobson and Focus on the Family lobbied Congress extensively for an outright ban on online poker, even at the expense of laying off hundreds of employees. Since his retirement, both he and Focus remain committed to stopping online poker. In fact, his focus for this issue is so great that I am concerned that he sought assurances from you that you would support him in his quest.

While I would personally love for the federal government and the Commonwealth to leave us alone and let us play, the fact is that Congress has consistently opposed this. The House has continually voted against unregulated, untaxed online poker and gaming by wide margins. This most recently happened in 2006, when we lost the HR 4411 vote 317-93. At the state level, the Commonwealth is attempting to seize the domain names of online poker sites.

It seems there is a less than 1% chance for federal and state recognition of unregulated, untaxed online poker, but perhaps a 50% chance of getting licensed and regulated online poker done. I realize some would expect Kentucky's poker players simply to give up on online poker, but I do not believe that would do anything to further the cause of liberty. In fact, a successful prohibition would be seen as a victory of statism over liberty, and would do nothing to preserve Internet freedom.

What's important to me is your support for my rights. Please respond to this letter and let me know if you will support my freedoms. I hope that I, along with my over one million fellow Poker Players Alliance -- including over 13,000 in Kentucky -- can count on your support.

Thank you for your consideration.

In liberty,

Rich Muny
PPA KY State Director & Board Member
http://biggovernment.com/rmuny

[iplay2Joff]

My reading of the OP is that he thinks he will need a license to play online poker, much like you need a license to own a gun.

Just to clarify, licensing would be required by the operator not the player.

This is the same system that is used in countries where gambling is legal. In order to obtain a license an operator must show that they have met set standards designed to protect the consumer from things such as fraud and cheating and that their funds are segregated (such as with Pokerstars).

[TheEngineer]

Cleaner,

Please describe how you'd win the fight you describe.

[doctesseractyl]

With all due respect, I can't help but point out that this wreaks of PPA not standing up for the poker players, yet if the PPA just cowers into what the government is offering, it will claim a "victory" for poker players.

HOWEVER, if I have to take-it-or-leave-it then fine, I'll take it. I just want to play poker. I support the PPA in this endeavor and I hope that the PPA will stay focused on the issue of just letting people get back to what they were allowed to do prior to the UIGEA.

Thanks
-Doc-

[novahunterpa]

ITs not about we or the PPA wants its about whats reality and whats attainable. The Gov isn't just going to allow a multi-billion dollar industry to operate without some regulation,standards and oversight. If the government can't find a way to license/regulate online gaming then in their view they have no choice but to outlaw it. Every industry operates under some regulations and standards and gaming is no different.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by doctesseractyl

With all due respect, I can't help but point out that this wreaks of PPA not standing up for the poker players, yet if the PPA just cowers into what the government is offering, it will claim a "victory" for poker players.

Wouldn't advocating for something unobtainable and then losing the right to play at all as a result be "not standing up for players"? To me, standing up for players means we're actually in the fight, rather than sitting on the sidelines.

I know we all like to imagine the government has no right to tell us anything, but that's just not reality. We learned that when UIGEA passed and we learned it again on Black Friday.

HOWEVER, if I have to take-it-or-leave-it then fine, I'll take it. I just want to play poker. I support the PPA in this endeavor and I hope that the PPA will stay focused on the issue of just letting people get back to what they were allowed to do prior to the UIGEA.

UIGEA was voted on as a freestanding bill in the House. It passed 317-93.

I'm glad you're with us because we're in a real fight. There is no sentiment on the Hill for a return to the pre-UIGEA situation, unfortunately.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by novahunterpa

ITs not about we or the PPA wants its about whats reality and whats attainable. The Gov isn't just going to allow a multi-billion dollar industry to operate without some regulation,standards and oversight. If the government can't find a way to license/regulate online gaming then in their view they have no choice but to outlaw it. Every industry operates under some regulations and standards and gaming is no different.

This.

[Jake Da Mouth]

Originally Posted by Cleaner44

Thank you but I will decline your offer to join you in this farce. Growing the government and taking money from poker players to give to politicians is not a good goal in my opinion. If you ever get around to protecting the rights of poker players please let us know.

They already tax us, why not make it official?

[DonkeyQuixote]

Originally Posted by TheEngineer

...

I'm glad you're with us because we're in a real fight. There is no sentiment on the Hill for a return to the pre-UIGEA situation, unfortunately.

OP,

I am certainly not afraid to suggest to the PPA where they are missing the forest for the trees, or where they should re-allocate some resources to get players their maximum recovery from AP/UB/FTP seized funds.

HOWEVER, even if you think that a pre-UIGEA free market is best, the PPA is well within its right to push for a regulated market. The Board likely believes it is in the players interest under the circumstances. I happen to think that the AGA idea can be shaped to a federal authorization of a multi-State aggregator, to allow for the maximum political support from interested States, all B&M operators and Indian gaming interests.

Even if you do not agree, the next step if this federal effort fails will be State level regulation.

The May 24 Fly-in is a GOOD idea by the way.

[Cleaner44]

Originally Posted by iplay2Joff

My reading of the OP is that he thinks he will need a license to play online poker, much like you need a license to own a gun.

Just to clarify, licensing would be required by the operator not the player.

This is the same system that is used in countries where gambling is legal. In order to obtain a license an operator must show that they have met set standards designed to protect the consumer from things such as fraud and cheating and that their funds are segregated (such as with Pokerstars).

Operator licenses do not protect people from fraud. Ask the victims of Bernie Madoff if he had a license. Was a government agency behind the discovery of the Absolute Poker cheating scandal or did players take care of that problem? The licensing by the government is not about protecting us from fraud, it is about generating revenue and exerting control over our actions.

[novahunterpa]

Cleaner What is your plan? Are you suggesting we go to Congress and ask them to add to the Bill of Rights the right to play poker and for anyone,group or business unfettered access to offer the play of poker, without regulation,license, and subject to no other law. What's your plan when Congress says no to this. Just give up?

[Cleaner44]

Originally Posted by TheEngineer

Cleaner,

Please describe how you'd win the fight you describe.

I can't say that I would win, but I can describe how I would wage the fight I describe.

1. I would focus on challeging Congress's authority on the matter. Congress takes many actions for which they have no authority. The recent healthcare law ia a good example. Congress passed an unConstitutional law which has already had many parts struck down and will be mired in the courts for quite some time. Just because Congress decides they want to get involved in a matter does not mean they have any Constitutional grounds to.

I would apply funds toward having lawyers work on this goal. All people have a natural right to be free and government's only legitimate purpose is to protect that freedom.

Nearly all of the specific, "enumerated" Legislative Powers of Congress are spelled out in Article of I, Section 8 the Constitution. Because these powers are delegated from the people, they are the only Legislative Powers Congress has.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I would demand Congress reference the specific clause(s) of the U.S. Constitution that grant them the power to enact laws on internet poker.

2. I would work toward crafting a very short and simple bill that poker players could use at their state level. The bill would have the goal of stating that poker should be free and legal. I would then encourage and assist poker players in each state to get that bill passed. Have the people vote it up or down. Getting poker declared legal on a state level would be huge. Maybe the people of Montana want it legal and the people of New Jersey do not. Let the people decide locally, much in the same way that Nevada has legal prostitution and Arizona does not.

3. I would work toward assisting poker players on a goal of working with their Federal Congressional representatives. Get players organized and have them remind the representatives that the Federal government should not be standing in the way of free people to play poker. Our Congressmen should be opposing all Federal legislation restricitng or regulating poker.

Bottom line is, we the people either want the freedom to play poker or we want it illegal. Taxing and regulating poker is purely about taking money from we the people and giving it to politicians. It is not about making it illegal and it is not about protecting our freedom.

[Cleaner44]

Originally Posted by Jake Da Mouth

They already tax us, why not make it official?

Because this will increase taxes on us. It will remove more money from the poker industry and put it into the hands of politicians.