Player-Funded PPA Possible??

[ChaosReigns]

Originally Posted by ppadave

Driller, If you contact me directly at Dave@theppa.org I will be happy to take care of this for you. I will need your name and email address in order to fix the issue. I am sure you are sick of hearing apologies so please send me an email and allow me to fix this for you.

Thank you for your past support and I hope that settling this issue will demonstrate the PPA's dedication to member satisfaction.

Guessing you already have his name and email address. You just need to know which one is his.

[driller]

Look, I don't really care about getting a cap or a protector or being able to log on to the member section of the PPA website.

Party and PokerStars and to a much lesser extent 2+2 need to hire an expensive Washington lobbyist. Some firm/person with a track record who can go out and get this done. Or at least find out what the story is.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by driller

Look, I don't really care about getting a cap or a protector or being able to log on to the member section of the PPA website.

Party and PokerStars and to a much lesser extent 2+2 need to hire an expensive Washington lobbyist. Some firm/person with a track record who can go out and get this done. Or at least find out what the story is.

PPA has good lobbyists, and we do know what the story is. The story is that we started with a lot of opposition to online poker, which was reflected in the HR 4411 317-93 House vote (the bill that became UIGEA after getting watered down in the Senate backrooms). The poker community has been working hard since then to educate lawmakers and the general public on the issue, which has helped us to make our case.

As we've gotten stronger, we've seen other interests, like horse racing, banks, and B&M casinos, join with us. As we keep getting stronger, more and more interests will align with us.

[DonkeyQuixote]

Originally Posted by TheEngineer

PPA has good lobbyists, and we do know what the story is. The story is that we started with a lot of opposition to online poker, which was reflected in the HR 4411 317-93 House vote (the bill that became UIGEA after getting watered down in the Senate backrooms). The poker community has been working hard since then to educate lawmakers and the general public on the issue, which has helped us to make our case.

As we've gotten stronger, we've seen other interests, like horse racing, banks, and B&M casinos, join with us. As we keep getting stronger, more and more interests will align with us.

Good lobbyists paid by funds from someone other than players ?

I think that, after last week, every US poker player should donate to the PPA with a message to play DEFENSE on Capitol Hill, against the inevitable FoF type of assault on the DOJ's restated Wire Act view.

I expect prospective licensees to seek draconian application of the Wire Act to "unlicensed poker". The PPA should resist that call and push for States to act, not the federal government.

If instead, the PPA does nothing to DEFEND the interim unlicensed access some players enjoy (lurrent US-facing provders), it will have betrayed many of its members. The PPA must represent players, not one or another faction of the industry.

Last year the PPA crossed that line, arguing that a BAN was needed to get licensed poker off the ground. That clearly is/was not the case anymore, as Nevada now has approved online poker.

[Jonaspublius]

Originally Posted by driller

Look, I don't really care about getting a cap or a protector or being able to log on to the member section of the PPA website.

Party and PokerStars and to a much lesser extent 2+2 need to hire an expensive Washington lobbyist. Some firm/person with a track record who can go out and get this done. Or at least find out what the story is.

The more I turn things over in my head, I am starting to find out why the PPA is not the group getting this done.

Why haven't we heard from a state, a tribe, a casino, or a trade group interested in working with the PPA? Why hasn't the PPA publicly stated in a visible manner it is looking for more US partners in moving legislation?

The only answer I can come up with is that Pappas and Da'Amato are professional lobbyists hired by the IGC. We know the IGC was funded by Stars and FTP, for the most part. So...............Pappas and company know the paychecks are drying up soon, and the IGC does NOT want to see poker business going to other companies. If the professional lobbyists at the PPA are seen using money from one client to shop for another, they will never get work in DC again. I think we have run up against a major conflict of interest and professional ethics that leaves poker players screwed. I guess the way to look at it is that we have a lame duck PPA, and no player voice going forward.

[Doc T River]

The players' voice is only going to be as strong as we, the players, make it.

I diagree with Jonas' statement, but I think Xanadu's response goes over the line. Especially since he's a mod in this area.

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by Doc T River

The players' voice is only going to be as strong as we, the players, make it.

I diagree with Jonas' statement, but I think Xanadu's response goes over the line. Especially since he's a mod in this area.

I'm also a member who posts. You are welcome to report my post, which will go to other mods and admins, if you think it violates forum rules.

But obviously it gets my point across - Jonas' post is just a speculative conspiracy theory about the PPA made from whole cloth out of his own mind rather than empirical evidence. Who knows - it could happen to be true. But that doesn't make the method that Jonas used to come to his conclusion valid. Tinfoil hat stuff, imo.

[sba9630]

Whenever something seemingly positive happens regarding online poker (i.e. DOJ Wire Act proclamation) there is a group of posters that take shots at the PPA. Some of them disappear for days/weeks/months and then reappear to foment discord among the movement. One sneaky embed acted upset, even going so far as to perma-ban him/herself, and then amazingly has returned to post.

I'm convinced that this Fifth Column is an organized effort by our opponents.

Likely, the FOF, Illuminati, and ALPSSS*.

*Association of Lawyers Praying for a State by State Solution.

Spoiler:

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

[Jonaspublius]

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

I'm also a member who posts. You are welcome to report my post, which will go to other mods and admins, if you think it violates forum rules.

But obviously it gets my point across - Jonas' post is just a speculative conspiracy theory about the PPA made from whole cloth out of his own mind rather than empirical evidence. Who knows - it could happen to be true. But that doesn't make the method that Jonas used to come to his conclusion valid. Tinfoil hat stuff, imo.

Then supply a reason why the PPA has no stateside allies, or is even looking for one? There has been a certain intransigence at the PPA about who is involved, who is targetted, and what means are used.

I don't think it is a reach to say that the IGC has decided to fold up shop when the fiscal budget runs out, and screw any other entity that gets to offer ipoker. The proof is in the pudding. It is showing it is not a player organization by refusing to seek help from those who can offer it.

It isn't a conclusion, but it is a working theory. Please, enlighten the poker playing community why their supposed "voice" isn't doing everything it can, including crossing its funders, to move ipoker forward? The time to ditch the IGC is here, and if Pappas et al can't do that in good conscience, their resignations would serve everyone involved.

[ChaosReigns]

Originally Posted by Jonaspublius

Then supply a reason why the PPA has no stateside allies, or is even looking for one? There has been a certain intransigence at the PPA about who is involved, who is targetted, and what means are used.

I don't think it is a reach to say that the IGC has decided to fold up shop when the fiscal budget runs out, and screw any other entity that gets to offer ipoker. The proof is in the pudding. It is showing it is not a player organization by refusing to seek help from those who can offer it.

It isn't a conclusion, but it is a working theory. Please, enlighten the poker playing community why their supposed "voice" isn't doing everything it can, including crossing its funders, to move ipoker forward? The time to ditch the IGC is here, and if Pappas et al can't do that in good conscience, their resignations would serve everyone involved.

Your last suggestion would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[sajeffe]

Wow. I'm too new to the online poker community (2 years) to know much, but this is an interesting thread. Lots of interesting perspectives.

I wish the PPA were a player-funded organization. I think I understand why they didn't start out that way. But since it's been basically industry-funded all along, transitioning will be difficult.

Hopefully we will get federal legislation this year and won't need all of the D.C. lobbyists anymore and the PPA can afford to shift to being player-funded to make it truly a poker PLAYERS alliance.

Then again, I suppose there are a lot of poker players who just don't care who is paying for the PPA advocacy.

Meh. It's a tough one. To me, player-funded is ideal, but I don't have a lot of faith in the players to do it.

[Jonaspublius]

Originally Posted by ChaosReigns

Your last suggestion would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Look, if I wanted to jettison everything I would be piling on with that fool DQ.

I don't.

What do I want? An honest answer as to why the PPA is failing to engage new allies. I will go so far as to say with FTP and Stars out of the US market, the IGC as funding for the PPA is likely over. Is ANYONE debating that?

O.K., on to point 2............player-funding for the PPA would be ideal, but the PPA nixed that idea in 2006-07. *IF* resurrected, it is a long term goal.

Point 3. Ipoker legislation is close, but anything the PPA can accomplish as-is, has already been done. Legislators know a lot of people play, and not very many are adamantly opposed. Those same people know ipoker is a big pot of money. Where they start stalling is on deciding who gets to be at the handle-end of all that money. Deciding who gets to win is 90% of politics, and no is sure who to make the winner.

So, the question is where to throw what weight we have where. What does the PPA have? Raw numbers. That is about it. We donate pitifully. We organize well below what we could. The only way to meaningfully be in the poker argument going forward is in conjunction with a money-source. There ARE companies and groups willing to work on this, and pump money into it.

Someone has to ask why the PPA isn't engaging. I know I threw a bomb. If I really wanted to just "muck it up", PX, I would have tossed it in Legislation or, god forbid, NVG. No, I put it here in the lowest-traffic place on 2p2 that is relevant. Most of us want the same thing, but if no one questions why we are passing up EV, how do we get anywhere? I think the conflict-of-interest point is relevant, and maybe the PPA is at a crossroads where if it does NOT jump ship from the IGC, game over for any chance of players having input.

Why won't anyone say, "Hey, we called Caesar's today, and offered to join forces to work on Capitol Hill, but they said **** off." Likely answer: Pappas
works for IGC, and might want a job somewhere else when they can't pay the light bill next year, so he never made the call.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by Jonaspublius

The more I turn things over in my head, I am starting to find out why the PPA is not the group getting this done.

Why haven't we heard from a state, a tribe, a casino, or a trade group interested in working with the PPA? Why hasn't the PPA publicly stated in a visible manner it is looking for more US partners in moving legislation?

PPA speaks with these groups and encourages them to support poker players' rights, but I'd not necessarily expect them to write us or any other independent group a big check for our efforts. That's really not their history. They tend either to start their own groups, especially at the state level for casino gaming legislation/amendments or to lobby themselves (all the groups you listed, but especially the tribal ones).

If these companies were handing out checks like water just for the asking, I suppose I'd be able to start my own group and send these groups invoices. Needless to say, that's simply not how it works.

The only answer I can come up with is that Pappas and Da'Amato are professional lobbyists hired by the IGC. We know the IGC was funded by Stars and FTP, for the most part. So...............Pappas and company know the paychecks are drying up soon, and the IGC does NOT want to see poker business going to other companies.

There's nothing like that going on. It doesn't even make sense. If the paychecks are drying up, it would be in their interests to find donors.

If the professional lobbyists at the PPA are seen using money from one client to shop for another, they will never get work in DC again.

I think we have run up against a major conflict of interest and professional ethics that leaves poker players screwed. I guess the way to look at it is that we have a lame duck PPA, and no player voice going forward.

IGC is a donor, not a client, and there is no quid pro quo. PPA's lobbyists work on behalf of the PPA membership and not the IGC. They report to PPA and not IGC.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by Jonaspublius

Then supply a reason why the PPA has no stateside allies, or is even looking for one? There has been a certain intransigence at the PPA about who is involved, who is targetted, and what means are used.

I don't think it is a reach to say that the IGC has decided to fold up shop when the fiscal budget runs out, and screw any other entity that gets to offer ipoker. The proof is in the pudding. It is showing it is not a player organization by refusing to seek help from those who can offer it.

No help has been refused....absolutely none.

It isn't a conclusion, but it is a working theory. Please, enlighten the poker playing community why their supposed "voice" isn't doing everything it can, including crossing its funders, to move ipoker forward? The time to ditch the IGC is here, and if Pappas et al can't do that in good conscience, their resignations would serve everyone involved.

Ditch them for what? To run this out of someone's basement? This stuff costs money. Again, I don't get your idea of why anyone whose paycheck is coming to an end, per your theory, would not seek out new resources.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by Jonaspublius

O.K., on to point 2............player-funding for the PPA would be ideal, but the PPA nixed that idea in 2006-07. *IF* resurrected, it is a long term goal.

No one nixed it. We've been begging for funding.

So, the question is where to throw what weight we have where. What does the PPA have? Raw numbers. That is about it. We donate pitifully. We organize well below what we could. The only way to meaningfully be in the poker argument going forward is in conjunction with a money-source. There ARE companies and groups willing to work on this, and pump money into it.

I'd count the participants in the Daily Action Plan for a more realistic estimate of where the community is in terms of their activity level. So, is it PPA's fault that participation isn't what it could be, or is it the participation level of the community that is responsible for the situation you describe?

Why won't anyone say, "Hey, we called Caesar's today, and offered to join forces to work on Capitol Hill, but they said **** off."

You've not heard of FairPlayUSA?

Likely answer: Pappas works for IGC, and might want a job somewhere else when they can't pay the light bill next year, so he never made the call.

Pappas does not work for the IGC.