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Tax question on poker Tax question on poker

06-30-2015 , 12:33 AM
If you are staked to play by someone is your income considered gambling winning or wages earned like commission. If say you do a 50/50 split on gambling winnings.
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 12:36 AM
Gambling winnings.
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06-30-2015 , 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Fox
In tax, there is a rule that applies to this situation: You can never change the type of income by moving it, running it through a business entity, etc. There are numerous court cases where individuals have attempted to do this; all have failed.

Certain types of income are treated differently in the Tax Code. One such type of income is "wagering income" (what we think of as gambling income). You cannot change wagering (gambling) income by moving it, running it through a business entity, etc. If it begins as gambling income, it will always remain as gambling income.

Let's say you play a poker tournament and cash in that tournament. That is gambling income. If you are backed in that tournament, your staker's share of your income is also gambling income. It doesn't matter whether he actually did the gambling or not; under the Tax Code it remains gambling income. Similarly, if you don't cash your staker's losses are gambling losses. (This, rather than gambling income, is far more important to the IRS. Section 165(d) of the Tax Code limits gambling losses to the amount of gambling wins and applies to both amateur and professional gamblers.)

The skill game issue is irrelevant for taxes. Wagering (gambling) occurs when there is a prize, chance, and a consideration. For chance, this has been defined by the courts as any element of chance. Poker is considered gambling for tax purposes. (There are a few Tax Court cases on this. See, for example, Tschetschot v Commissioner, T.C. Memo 2007-38.)

So is the backer a gambler? I don't know, but I do know that if he earns any income from his backing he has gambling income and if he has any losses he has gambling losses.

-- Russ Fox

Relevant. I added the bold for emphasis.
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 12:44 AM
^
Excellent response! This is true. The main point that is made by the IRS here is that you can only offset gambling loses to gambling winnings. I also believe that you can't carry over losses to previous or future years. You may only offset winnings with loses in the current year. Is this correct?
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06-30-2015 , 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrducks
^
Excellent response! This is true. The main point that is made by the IRS here is that you can only offset gambling loses to gambling winnings. I also believe that you can't carry over losses to previous or future years. You may only offset winnings with loses in the current year. Is this correct?
This is correct if you are filing as an amateur. If you are filing as a professional, then I think there is some carryover possible (though I'm not sure); and you can also deduct some other business expenses.
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05
This is correct if you are filing as an amateur. If you are filing as a professional, then I think there is some carryover possible (though I'm not sure); and you can also deduct some other business expenses.
No, even a pro cannot carry gambling losses over to future or past years. They can only be taken as a business deduction in the year incurred, up to the amount of gambling winnings in that year.

A pro can deduct legitimate business expenses in excess of net income, and carry over any excess to another year(s).
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
No, even a pro cannot carry gambling losses over to future or past years. They can only be taken as a business deduction in the year incurred, up to the amount of gambling winnings in that year.

A pro can deduct legitimate business expenses in excess of net income, and carry over any excess to another year(s).
A professional gambler with a Net Operating Loss (NOL) from business expenses can carry the loss back exactly two years (e.g. from 2014 to 2012) or carry it forward. To carry it forward, a tax election must be made on the timely filed tax return (including extensions).

-- Russ Fox
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Fox
A professional gambler with a Net Operating Loss (NOL) from business expenses can carry the loss back exactly two years (e.g. from 2014 to 2012) or carry it forward. To carry it forward, a tax election must be made on the timely filed tax return (including extensions).

-- Russ Fox
Thanks, Russ. I have added this to the US Taxes sticky.
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 01:31 PM
I've got a similar question that deals with Daily Fantasy Football.

Here's the hypothetical scenario: Let's say two people share 1 account, 50/50 split (account holder is John Doe). They win a net total of $20k for the year (10k each) and the fantasy website sends a tax form to John Doe at the end of the year stating that he won 20k (in reality he only won 10k due to 50/50 split), and no tax form to the other player. How would you approach this situation when both of them go to file taxes? And let's assume both guys are filing as professional gamblers (John Doe also plays poker separate from the 50/50 split, other guy only plays fantasy).

Thanks.

Last edited by rakeme; 06-30-2015 at 01:40 PM.
Tax question on poker Quote
06-30-2015 , 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rakeme
I've got a similar question that deals with Daily Fantasy Football.

Here's the hypothetical scenario: Let's say two people share 1 account, 50/50 split (account holder is John Doe). They win a net total of $20k for the year (10k each) and the fantasy website sends a tax form to John Doe at the end of the year stating that he won 20k (in reality he only won 10k due to 50/50 split), and no tax form to the other player. How would you approach this situation when both of them go to file taxes? And let's assume both guys are filing as professional gamblers (John Doe also plays poker separate from the 50/50 split, other guy only plays fantasy).

Thanks.
You can handle it the same way as suggested for backers in staking situations, as covered in the US Taxes sticky.
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07-07-2015 , 06:14 PM
So any losses accrued in excess of any gambling winnings this year will be lost forever after Dec 31 2015 which stinks to high heaven. It is like a use it or lose it kind of proposition. One could plunk down money in myriad of Vegas tourneys and not cash at all without anything to show for it and eat all the losses at end of 2015. 2016 comes and all that loss goes down the drain and will never be harvested against any offset ever again. That really is such bull but those are the rules.

Gambling in the stock market is way better based on IRS rules b/c any losses incurred there can be carried forward forever until wiped away with gains if and when they occur in the future. Those are under IRS capital gain/loss rules. One can also offset cap gains against ordinary loss too. All that means is offsetting one characterization (type) of income against loss of another (IRS allows individual to deduct $3k of ordinary loss against net capital gains). This all the more minimizes taxes in current year.

Last edited by HurtLocker; 07-07-2015 at 06:20 PM.
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