Mexican Drug Cartel Linked to Money Laundering through Horse Racing

[TheDarkElf]

Originally Posted by TeflonDawg

Every player who ever requested a cashout prior to Black Friday received their money.

Only on Black Friday was the shortfall too great to overcome because the devastation did not allow them to continue to operate, which would've allowed them to make players whole just like PS did. You keep ignoring that after BF, FT continued to operate and did pay some ROW players back, albeit slowly, for obvious reasons.

I got bounced checks too, bro. Anyone who goes lolz FT stole my manies, outside of Black Friday, is being disingenuous. Everyone who requested a cashout prior to then received their money.

TOTAL FALSEHOOD. I know quite a few players extremely well from the FTP forum, where I was far more active than I will ever be here, that in the six months leading up to BF who repeatedly requested withdrawals and got nothing but bounced checks, checks that never arrived, and lame excuses. These weren't "random players", they were regular posters in the forum, and the majority of them were people I considered friends.

Actually, I think the DOJ was shocked that PS paid their players back almost seamlessly. They probably expected to own both FT and PS, and sell it to future online poker operators or something. After all, they're rumored to be selling FT to PS for 750 mil.

(A) Don't believe every rumor you hear.
(B) Even if true, PS would be paying the majority of the money for a settlement of the charges against them. They already have a poker site - they are not paying $750M for FTP's software.

Ray Bitar isn't much different from Isai Scheinberg. I think it's pretty funny that people automatically give PS a gold star and FUUUUUUUUUUUU to FT when their owners are really both criminals committing the same crimes. Just goes to show you people only care about their money, damn everything else in the grand scheme of things. I don't think for one second Scheinberg wouldn't have done exactly what Bitar did if found in a similar situation.

If true, all the more reason to make sure unlicensed sites don't operate here anymore.

You can use the word stolen all you want, it doesn't change the truth of things. You're painting a picture that isn't quite telling the whole story, and you can't discount the fact that there were (and still are apparently) efforts being made to find a way to pay US and ROW players back.

The system demands payment on demand, not 14 months of negotiations while they try to find someone to buy their site so they can pay the money they owe.

I also used examples from the modern day so I don't know why you're making this point because the parallels even nearly a century ago hold true today.

If I'm am not mistaken and also ironically, Prohibition was repealed in part because of a need for new tax revenue. The same thing can be said today of the expansion of gambling/gaming to the internet.

Nobody knows the true parameters of their cash flow, but don't forget the actual business was worth something too. And by something, I mean a ****ing lot.

Regardless of what you define printing money as, the fact remains that when the DOJ shut down 3rd party processors the site made players whole almost instantly all the way up until Black Friday.

You are sorely mistaken. FTP had about $60M left the day before BF, and about $300M is debt. They were never gonna make the year no matter what. 6 more months of $10M dividend payments, and then Hasta la Vista, Baby!.

This is just more disingenuous talk. Players can have all the whiny stories they want, sans Black Friday, they all got paid. That they want to be impatient little bitches in an environment like post-UIGEA and pre-BF or complain about what ultimately ends up being their own incompetence dealing with customer support (which I admit were incompetent in their own right often enough) or bankroll management is their own fault not Full Tilt's.

ORLY? "We have detected you practice bad bankroll management, so therefore, we are not going to pay you."

LMFAO.

It still amazes me people can't appreciate the fact that sites, albeit with selfish motives, still chose to risk ruin just so we could even play poker at all never mind with a near unlimited selection of games.

And the answer is the government blazed the trail by writing the UIGEA. It worked because fortunately for the DOJ, the sites were indeed brain dead, and oh yeah there's that snitch that likely clinched the indictments.

Be that as it may about the story of Mr. J-off, the UIGEA was crafted by another set of lobbyists and passed in a post-9/11 world on a bill that nobody was voting against ever. Sure it may have had nothing to do with poker, but it had everything to do with anything taking away from Harrah's, the NFL, and Churchill Downs' bottom line.[/QUOTE]

Harrah's, the NFL, and Churchill Down's all do what they do for their own selfish interests. That is what businesses are supposed to do.

The difference between them and FTP is simple - they pay their debts.

[tamiller866]

Teflon,

The only people made criminals by the passage of the UIGEA were third party processors, Party Poker signed a non prosecution agreement and paid $105M acknowledging the same violations which PokerStars et al are accused of, and they ceased operations before the law took effect:

beginning in 2001, PartyGaming employed a variety of methods to
misrepresent the nature of its customers' transactions to U.S.
credit card issuers who did not permit their credit cards to be
used for Internet gambling. PartyGaming also took steps to
disguise payments of winnings to U.S. customers. In its 2005 IPO
prospectus, PartyGaming recognized that "[t]here is uncertainty
as to the legality of online gaming in most countries and in many
countries, including the U.S., the Group's [PartyGaming's]
activities are considered to be illegal by relevant authorities."
PartyGaming has now acknowledged that this conduct did in fact
violate certain U.S. criminal laws, including sections 1955
(illegal gambling), 1343 (fraud by wire communications), and 1344
(bank fraud) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

[lawdude]

Teflon:

You are half right on FTP. No doubt UIGEA significantly increased the probability that sites would start commingling funds and engaging in financial chicanery to continue to do business as the vise tightened on the banking industry. So yeah, one of the reasons UIGEA was a bad statute is that it led to increased fraud.

But FTP, nonetheless, WAS a ponzi scheme. Everyone who holds deposits knows that they need to be either insured or held in trust. Using player deposits to fund operations and payouts to the owners was inexcusable.

[TeflonDawg]

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

TOTAL FALSEHOOD. I know quite a few players extremely well from the FTP forum, where I was far more active than I will ever be here, that in the six months leading up to BF who repeatedly requested withdrawals and got nothing but bounced checks, checks that never arrived, and lame excuses. These weren't "random players", they were regular posters in the forum, and the majority of them were people I considered friends.

Then you need to cite that from that particular forum, because otherwise you're just exaggerating again or even plain making things up. There is an FTP withdrawal thread here (I posted there often), and nobody didn't get paid outside of BF. There may be one or two exceptions, but that isn't the site ripping players off, it's a technical issue that needed to be resolved (hence incompetence, either by the site or the player for whatever reason).

From 2006 all the way up to Black Friday I withdrew money every single week after rakeback payments came in, and never, NEVER was not paid. You can extrapolate that to pretty much every other grinder in addition to me who kept a min roll online at all times. These players make 5-6 maybe even 7 figures a year and ALWAYS got paid.

In other words, for example, they were keeping $2k online to play 100NL, and cashing out $50-100k a year, or something along those lines.

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

If true, all the more reason to make sure unlicensed sites don't operate here anymore.

Nonsense. PokerStars' reputation is damn near pristine in the ROW. And I would gladly play on a Full Tilt Poker reincarnation if it came back to the States with a license. Both sites produced a legit and fair game, and did a great job of dealing with cheaters if you take into account the pathetic regulatory bodies that "governed" them.

Our government could've rectified that in about two seconds, and without the unethical bordering on corrupt fashion in which the UIGEA needed in order to pass.

You act like the circumstances that arose = PS and FT owners are more scummy than the future owners of the sites that will open in Nevada at the end of this year. THEY'RE ALL SCUMMY!

These sites were perfectly legit sites before the UIGEA passed, and would've remained so without retarded laws that drove them underground.

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

The system demands payment on demand, not 14 months of negotiations while they try to find someone to buy their site so they can pay the money they owe.

That doesn't change the fact that there are efforts being made to pay players back.

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

You are sorely mistaken. FTP had about $60M left the day before BF, and about $300M is debt. They were never gonna make the year no matter what. 6 more months of $10M dividend payments, and then Hasta la Vista, Baby!.

I don't know why you're bringing this up b/c it has nothing to do with the part of my post you quoted. And based on this response, I don't think you understood the point of it either.

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

ORLY? "We have detected you practice bad bankroll management, so therefore, we are not going to pay you."

Again you're missing the point and no, the point was that there are a lot of players who claimed FTP robbed them, or they cashed out when they desperately needed money but couldn't get it fast enough and blamed FTP for troubles they caused themselves. Ignorance of the state of online poker in America is not an excuse, and you certainly don't get to blame FTP for your own ****-ups.

You need to stay on point, because you seem to be ignoring the crux of my posts of which you quote, bordering on trolling.

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

Harrah's, the NFL, and Churchill Down's all do what they do for their own selfish interests. That is what businesses are supposed to do.

The difference between them and FTP is simple - they pay their debts.

It's funny you mention Harrah's given CZR's massive debt load...which they may not pay back even if federal impossislation came to fruition.

And the difference between them is the DOJ shattered FTP, and the government passes laws to protect the others' bottom line. And by your own logic you are actually justifying what you claim is theft by the owners of FTP.

[TeflonDawg]

I'm tired of this thread. I'm sure we can agree that we both hate FTP, I just hate the government a little more and the DOJ by association because I'm an angry, angry man on life tilt.

[TheDarkElf]

Originally Posted by TeflonDawg

I'm tired of this thread. I'm sure we can agree that we both hate FTP, I just hate the government a little more and the DOJ by association because I'm an angry, angry man on life tilt.

I thought about this and decided all of your posts were a complete level.

Nobody could be possibly be that obtuse and naive.

Well played sir.

[TeflonDawg]

Originally Posted by TheDarkElf

I thought about this and decided to respond in a petty manner.

fyp

[JudgeHoldem1848]

Zetas win.

[Lego05]

Originally Posted by tamiller866

Most cities have ordinances requiring a business license to sell anything, but they don't go around shutting down kids' lemonade stands 'because it's the law'- the problem is the 'big 3' weren't just selling a few glasses of lemonade.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...monade-stands/

[tamiller866]

DOH!

Unreal.