It's official....PokerStars purchase of Full Tilt Poker approved! - Page 6 - Poker Legislation

insidemanpoker · 08-01-2012, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneonth3run

They're already pocketing $400M plus any unclaimed funds through the remission process. And they get to keep the money they've seized over the years plus any future settlement with those individuals still under indictment. I highly doubt they "skim" anything from player balances. The IRS, on the other hand, will want a piece of your payday. But that's simply the cost of being a US citizen and is to be expected anyway.

But what are you saying here? That the IRS is involved in this? Of course Americans have to pay their taxes on this money just like any other cash, but is the IRS actually going to be actively involved in this process or simply the usual where it is the duty of the taxpayer to declare their income etc etc. The IRS and the DoJ are not the same and I am not really so sure they communicate quite as freely as is assumed. I think most of us prefer the latter even if it is just a formality. I'm more than happy to pay my taxes on this money (and of course I will) as I have on everything I made, but we would all rather avoid audits and the like as they can be quite costly even if it ends up clear you paid every penny you owed. I am actually pleasantly surprised how few audit nightmare stories have come out of the poker world as it has always been a scary proposition mainly because with audits, you are guilty until proven innocent and proving stuff as a poker player can sometimes be problematic or at least confusing to a random auditor looking at a HEM chart.

oneonth3run · 08-01-2012, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

But what are you saying here? That the IRS is involved in this? Of course Americans have to pay their taxes on this money just like any other cash, but is the IRS actually going to be actively involved in this process or simply the usual where it is the duty of the taxpayer to declare their income etc etc. The IRS and the DoJ are not the same and I am not really so sure they communicate quite as freely as is assumed. I think most of us prefer the latter even if it is just a formality. I'm more than happy to pay my taxes on this money (and of course I will) as I have on everything I made, but we would all rather avoid audits and the like as they can be quite costly even if it ends up clear you paid every penny you owed. I am actually pleasantly surprised how few audit nightmare stories have come out of the poker world as it has always been a scary proposition mainly because with audits, you are guilty until proven innocent and proving stuff as a poker player can sometimes be problematic or at least confusing to a random auditor looking at a HEM chart.

I do not think the IRS is going to be involved in screening the cashout requests or at any point of the remission process unless possibly for the large accounts (what that range may be I have no idea as I'm just speculating). That said, as you mentioned you should obv pay what taxes you owe on the amount received as usual. Which for most will likely mean an amended return (which typically isn't a big deal).

ayra · 08-01-2012, 03:07 AM

Good news, happy to hear that "some" of you may be getting your money back.

To super Tuesday and to my birthday. cheers.

**PokerXanadu** · 08-01-2012, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

I'd love to hear some PPA and Legislation regulars respond to the below conversation:

My take on it:

In the case of PokerStars account payouts to US players, it was a simple matter of repayment of customers.

In the case of FTP, the legal complexities of transfer of assets under forfeiture law, and the "ponzi scheme" accusations which convert their customers to "victims" came into play, resulting in a government remission process for return of funds to US players.

The ROW players become customers of the new FTP, with PokerStars responsible for resurrecting their account balances. The US players cannot be customers of the new FTP as they aren't allowed to play again, so they remain victims of the old FTP, eligible for remission.

DePokerGod · 08-01-2012, 03:56 AM

FINALLY...........

**PokerXanadu** · 08-01-2012, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

My take on it:

In the case of PokerStars account payouts to US players, it was a simple matter of repayment of customers.

In the case of FTP, the legal complexities of transfer of assets under forfeiture law, and the "ponzi scheme" accusations which convert their customers to "victims" came into play, resulting in a government remission process for return of funds to US players.

The ROW players become customers of the new FTP, with PokerStars responsible for resurrecting their account balances. The US players cannot be customers of the new FTP as they aren't allowed to play again, so they remain victims of the old FTP, eligible for remission.

Another thought: If the DOJ allowed PokerStars to repay US players as FTP customers, it might weaken their Ponzi scheme fraud charges against individuals (such as Bitar) in the criminal indictments. Keeping the repayments to US players as "remission to victims" buttresses their legal position in the criminal cases.

sngmincash · 08-01-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JadeLane

How sad is it when money owed to you by an online poker site is worth more than money owed by the US DOJ?

That is actually pretty funny (for a non American)

Question: You’re a US citizen, who would you rather have your money and promise to give it back to you

A: Your Government
or
B: On offshore internet gambling company recently charged with fraud and money laundering?

Answer: I’ll take B thanks

lol

Doc T River · 08-01-2012, 07:53 AM

The fiancee was the only one of us to have money locked up on FTP and we can't even remember her name on there. If we never get it back, at least it wasn't much.

KingKongGrinder · 08-01-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sngmincash

That is actually pretty funny (for a non American)

Question: You’re a US citizen, who would you rather have your money and promise to give it back to you

A: Your Government
or
B: On offshore internet gambling company recently charged with fraud and money laundering?

Answer: I’ll take B thanks

lol

Amazing, isn't it? I couldn't celebrate like I wanted to once I heard we are getting our money back from our own government.

tamiller866 · 08-01-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

Another thought: If the DOJ allowed PokerStars to repay US players as FTP customers, it might weaken their Ponzi scheme fraud charges against individuals (such as Bitar) in the criminal indictments. Keeping the repayments to US players as "remission to victims" buttresses their legal position in the criminal cases.

That +1, besides the key word being allowed, they could allow FTP/PS to repay the players, but while illegal gambling criminal charges are still pending, they couldn't possibly structure a binding settlement ordering PS to repay what would be proceeds of that illegal gambling business - unlawful debt.

**PokerXanadu** · 08-01-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamiller866

That +1, besides the key word being allowed, they could allow FTP/PS to repay the players, but while illegal gambling criminal charges are still pending, they couldn't possibly structure a binding settlement ordering PS to repay what would be proceeds of that illegal gambling business - unlawful debt.

Although we are saying similar things, I disagree with your logic in regards to the illegal gambling charges. The monies being returned to US players are obviously not being categorized by the DOJ as "proceeds of illegal gambling". If that were true, players would never see the money.

The DOJ is clearly making a distinction between player money and the proceeds of conducting an illegal gambling business (i.e., the business revenues generated by collecting rake and fees).

caseycjc · 08-01-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

Another thought: If the DOJ allowed PokerStars to repay US players as FTP customers, it might weaken their Ponzi scheme fraud charges against individuals (such as Bitar) in the criminal indictments. Keeping the repayments to US players as "remission to victims" buttresses their legal position in the criminal cases.

I'm confident that this is exactly what the DOJ was thinking when they chose their wording with regards to paying US players.

smiteme · 08-01-2012, 11:05 AM

I know it would be completely speculation... but:

For those of us dumb enough to try to cash out portions of our BR the morning of black Friday, anybody have a guess as to how we would go about claiming that money as well?

ERGOPHOBIA · 08-01-2012, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

Another thought: If the DOJ allowed PokerStars to repay US players as FTP customers, it might weaken their Ponzi scheme fraud charges against individuals (such as Bitar) in the criminal indictments. Keeping the repayments to US players as "remission to victims" buttresses their legal position in the criminal cases.

Takes one to know one

**PokerXanadu** · 08-01-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smiteme

I know it would be completely speculation... but:

For those of us dumb enough to try to cash out portions of our BR the morning of black Friday, anybody have a guess as to how we would go about claiming that money as well?

Yes:

Step 1: Wait for the DOJ to issue their remission claim guidelines.
Step 2: Follow those guidelines.
Step 3: If your situation is not covered, request clarification from the DOJ.