It's official....PokerStars purchase of Full Tilt Poker approved!

[CaliBobby]

so is IS gonna serve time?

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by 5204salty

This statement is false. All charges against the companies are settled as part of this agreement. The charges against individuals are proceeding. And the "no admission of guilt or wrongdoing" is important because it means that there will be nothing to automatically disqualify PokerStars from getting a license (i.e., they have never been convicted of anything). Granted a licensing agency could use an indictment as a disqualifier, but a conviction standard is more likely. And the kind words from the DoJ can't hurt.

Second reading comprehension FAIL. What does the word "regarding" mean to you?

Let's try this one more time. The licenses will be granted by REGULATORS. HUMAN BEINGS. And just like in Nevada casino gaming, they will have DISCRETION. Which they will EXERCISE.

And they will view Stars and Tilt as having a criminal history, especially so long as charges are pending REGARDING their conduct. (Again, note the word "regarding".)

Read Russ Fox here if you think I'm the only one who thinks this:

Will PokerStars (or Full Tilt Poker) be returning to the US anytime soon? No. While the agreement specifically allows for PokerStars to apply for licenses if and when online poker is legalized in the US, the criminal charges against PokerStars were not settled. As long as PokerStars (or any of its owners, executives, or managers) faces a criminal indictment, they will not be licensed in the US.

Most gaming licensing boards are extremely reticent about licensing anyone with any sort of criminal past. If PokerStars were found innocent of the criminal charges against it, then they would have a chance of obtaining a US (or state) license. Until then, it is extremely doubtful that US players will see PokerStars (or Full Tilt Poker) back in the United States.

[totaltool]

I'm not sure you know that word and i'm not sure you know the difference between corporations and people. Maybe if nobody else shares your definition of "regarding" in that context, you could have worded it better? Or maybe you are trying to backtrack and debate the meaning of "is"

[CANUCKEH44]

Originally Posted by 5204salty

This statement is false. All charges against the companies are settled as part of this agreement. The charges against individuals are proceeding. And the "no admission of guilt or wrongdoing" is important because it means that there will be nothing to automatically disqualify PokerStars from getting a license (i.e., they have never been convicted of anything). Granted a licensing agency could use an indictment as a disqualifier, but a conviction standard is more likely. And the kind words from the DoJ can't hurt.

Dismissed "WITH PREJUDICE"
Does not mean Jack. There were indictments against them, Regardless of weather they are convicted or not it's still going to be an uphill battle for them to get a gaming license in the US.
Unless they sell the company to a Nevada Casino like Caesar's or Wynne
Chances are slim at best.

[twisty8]

Originally Posted by oldbookguy

If you are in the U. S., NEVER.
The money money (maybe) comes from the DoJ.

from the posted news release:

lol I'm not surprised. From what I've heard, USA players will have to PETITION the DOJ for retrieval of funds.


Edited to add: shortly after Black Friday USA players were able to promptly withdraw their funds from Pokerstars. So why would the USA DOJ be treating the USA funds from FTP any differently? The players were not part of the scam. Why can't USA players have their money ASAP?

[LastLife]

Rich you may want to update the tigerdroppings thread:

http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/p...-Fulltilt.aspx

TD gets quite a bit of traffic, and football season is starting real soon.

[Skallagrim]

"If PokerStars were found innocent of the criminal charges against it ...."

Even Russ makes a non-tax related mistake once in a while (and he said he was on vacation as he posted).

The bottom line is that to the extent (I will let other folks decide that extent for themselves) lawdude's first post implied PS was automatically barred from seeking a US based license it was wrong.

To the extent ldude now agrees with me that that still leaves PS a difficult time ahead actually getting a license, that is correct.... But do not discount the passage of time, the goodwill PS has created for itself, just how damn well PS runs its business. and possible international trade pressure.

Skallagrim

[Lottery Larry]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I would assume that despite their eligibility, neither Stars nor Tilt will ever be licensed in the US. Bear in mind, there are still outstanding criminal and civil charges regarding their pre-BF conduct.

Perhaps... though I think the bribery payment (errr.... settlement) would be intended to help open some doors.

$225M? Doesn't this sound like a really great scam? Wow...


Edit, now that I've seen the late posts- doesn't the cynic in you, Skall, believe that settling/dropping the criminal charges might already be part of the deal, as far as setting the eligibility for future gaming? Assuming that indicted individuals are not associated with PS, of course.

Unless acquiring the FT base, without any chances of a US future, is lucrative enough for PS to justify the investment, on that alone.....

eh, we'll see in a few years. I won't be surprised to see things 'melt' away, but again I might be overly cynical.

[insidemanpoker]

I'd love to hear some PPA and Legislation regulars respond to the below conversation:

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

If DoJ plans to pay back people in full, which my gut says is the case, what the hell is their reasoning for demanding they be in charge of dealing with this when Stars/FTP would be so much better equipped to facilitate this efficiently? Is it for PR to be the savior? Is it to send info to the IRS? Is it something I am missing? All I know is the argument that the DoJ wants to collect the extra money that some players won't claim is crap. I am sure that kind of stuff was considered by both sides and was part of the settlement. If Stars wanted to be in charge of this, as I believe was their goal, they would have been able to just negotiate the 'real' amount they'd be paying vs the total owed and I doubt that was a sticking point.

So what gives? Why the hell does the DoJ want to have to work a payout for tens of thousands if not more people in a unique situation when they could have made this so much easier for everyone involved? I really want to understand better why they were so adamant about this. It is hard not to be skeptical of their motives when they so blatantly wanted player info when they really didn't need it at all (as far as I know).

I'd love to hear thoughts on this from Noah or DF if possible Happy to hear what others have to say as well.

Originally Posted by NxtWrldChamp

Ifrah was on ESPN's Poker Edge radio show today with Feldman and Wise and stated that the reason was that the DOJ could not re-open FTP(citing that it is illegal for FTP to operate in the US) so they are the ones that have to handle the repayment.

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

Thanks for the reply. Doesn't that sound a bit like BS to you? I mean obviously they allowed Stars to repay players after BF and it seems illogical to think they couldn't have done the same in this case. I can't imagine it was a technicality but I'd love to be wrong. I guess I am generally just skeptical when the government wants citizens info when it doesn't seem necessary. It feels like they have some malicious reason even if there is a decent chance they do not in this case.

As to the 16 million speculated bonus others are referring to, again, that same amount would have been speculated by Stars and could have easily been worked into negotiating to be behind paying out players, so I'm not buying that.

In general, if it was just super easy and simple for the DOJ to pay people out, I'd understand why they'd just want to play hero etc etc, but it isn't. This will be legitimately laborious for them and in my opinion, didn't have to happen at all, so it has to make me wonder a little why they are choosing to take on this headache. I am just hoping to really understand their true motivation to do this.

Originally Posted by Go Get It

It was illegal for PS to operate in the US when they paid back players, no?

Originally Posted by uhasmymoney?

fwiw they already have all of our info. They don't need us to apply for remission to get it.

I suppose there should be a hint of skepticism still for us, but all indications seem to point towards US players being reimbursed. (cash, not points/medals)

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

Is this confirmed. Did Stars ever hand over to the DoJ their own player lists and financial histories? I have not heard this.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by totaltool

I'm not sure you know that word and i'm not sure you know the difference between corporations and people. Maybe if nobody else shares your definition of "regarding" in that context, you could have worded it better? Or maybe you are trying to backtrack and debate the meaning of "is"

Pretty simply, gaming regulators do not treat cardrooms as corporations independent of people associated or formerly associated with them. Pokerstars, the company, may be out of the legal woods, but there are still charges that relate to Pokerstars' course of conduct pending (the reason I chose the word "regarding"), and nobody's going to issue Pokerstars a license under those circumstances.

If you intend to reside in the US, don't ever expect to play poker on PokerStars ever again. That company is likely to be treated as having a criminal history by any regulator.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

"If PokerStars were found innocent of the criminal charges against it ...."

Even Russ makes a non-tax related mistake once in a while (and he said he was on vacation as he posted).

The bottom line is that to the extent (I will let other folks decide that extent for themselves) lawdude's first post implied PS was automatically barred from seeking a US based license it was wrong.

To the extent ldude now agrees with me that that still leaves PS a difficult time ahead actually getting a license, that is correct.... But do not discount the passage of time, the goodwill PS has created for itself, just how damn well PS runs its business. and possible international trade pressure.

Skallagrim

I NEVER said Stars was "automatically" barred. I said they aren't going to get a license, especially with criminal charges pending (yes, Skalla, against individual defendants) relating to its prior conduct.

[Lottery Larry]

Originally Posted by lawdude

If you intend to reside in the US, don't ever expect to play poker on PokerStars ever again. That company is likely to be treated as having a criminal history by any regulator.

Not being a business history buff..... would this assumption be limited to the gambling industry?


Meaning- if a business has a past history of a crime, but the related personnel are removed from that company... is the business irrevocably stained as a criminal enterprise?

[sngmincash]

People saying they will never get licenced don't seem to realise how much money talks. Deals could be done or could have already been done behind closed doors.

Originally Posted by Lottery Larry

Not being a business history buff..... would this assumption be limited to the gambling industry?

Meaning- if a business has a past history of a crime, but the related personnel are removed from that company... is the business irrevocably stained as a criminal enterprise?

This is a good point, dozens of companies have been found guilty and paid huge fines and even had executives go to jail but the company has kept on trading afterwards. banks, pharmaceutic, chemistry and tabaco companies for example

I agree that the gaming industry is unique with licencing and the importance of a clean image but this would make it harder for PS/FTP to get a licences not impossible.

Other left field possibilities like a Vegas company getting a licence and after a year announcing they will share PS software and player pool (basically as a skin for PS but they wouldn't call it that)... anything could happen from here.

[AnEmergency]

I'd be willing to bet the government takes a piece off the top before they return any funds to players.

[oneonth3run]

Originally Posted by AnEmergency

I'd be willing to bet the government takes a piece off the top before they return any funds to players.

They're already pocketing $400M plus any unclaimed funds through the remission process. And they get to keep the money they've seized over the years plus any future settlement with those individuals still under indictment. I highly doubt they "skim" anything from player balances. The IRS, on the other hand, will want a piece of your payday. But that's simply the cost of being a US citizen and is to be expected anyway.