How to fight the WA internet poker law

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by LetsGambool

TE, earlier in the thread you stated that players going to see lawmakers would be looked upon like a fringe group.

I said that we'd be perceived as a fringe group if we hadn't done the necessary foundational work. That's why I write those columns and that's why PPA ensures that our position is reflected in media.

That sounded to me like you didnt really think players should be doing that. Plus the PPA doesnt seem to have any interest in helping to organize such a push, or anything to get WA players that want to get more involved more ways to do so.

I went to D.C. in 2007 on my own dime to meet with lawmakers to explain our position. PPA itself has organized two fly-ins plus some virtual fly-ins where they've set up local meetings for members to meet with their lawmakers.

We absolutely need more than just that. Im sure the PPA wants players more involved, but the organization is, frankly, not effective at grassroots. There is currently essentially no organized effort in WA, a state which the PPA listed as a top priority for 2011. Lee Rousso hasnt posted here in almost two years and, despite the PPA's reliance on social media and the internet, there is AFAIK not even a website dedicated to fighting the WA law. There are three threads full of players in WA saying "What can I do to help", and I have people PMng me from WA saying "Id love to get involved, but I feel like I dont have the tools to do more for the cause".

Grasshopper in particular has given some great advice, IMO, as to how to build up a real grassroots effort.

Have you and Grasshopper emailed this to John and Drew? It's not like you're not able to contact them.

I hope the PPA takes it to heart in WA and elsewhere. A wise man once told me "trust in God, all others bring data" or something along those lines. The data so far for the PPA is this: zero pro-poker laws passed at either the state or Federal level. The way to change that data is certainly not for people like you and Skall to work harder. It needs to come from the player base, but the player base needs an organization to help players that want to take the initiative to fight back. Right now, in most states, the PPA is not that.

Now, players can certainly take the initiative to form their own organization outside of the PPA and fight back.

PPA is begging for people to volunteer to step up.

WA players are currently trying to do just that with zero PPA support. I dont see why the PPA shouldnt be the home for grassroot efforts given their lobbying and litigation efforts and player mailing list. Just doesnt seem like the organization wants to head in that direction though. Hope that the lobbyists and social media campaign can get the job done on their own, but we have a tough fight here and that seems like its going to be tough.

Post some suggestions on how to achieve what you wish to see.

[LetsGambool]

Grassroots suggestions have been posted a number of times, it usually ends with disagreement or assertions that either the PPA is actually already doing what is suggested or its not a strength of poker players so we shouldnt try it. No need to go through it again. I support the PPA as they certainly are doing more for poker players than anyone else. Im building up a contact base of WA players, and if I move there hopefully can help get something that looks like a real grassroots effort going. For now I'll hope our lobbyists are working the backrooms and making something happen.

[Skallagrim]

There is a big difference here.

A group of WA poker players getting themselves organized, coming up with a plan to do something, and asking the PPA for help getting it done, will find the PPA very responsive and very helpful.

A group of WA players posting on an internet forum "hey, how come the PPA isn't doing anything" are going to get the type of response you have noted.

I truly hope LG and/or FGBHooper and/or others who want change are able to organize players and do something in WA.

Skallagrim

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by LetsGambool

Grassroots suggestions have been posted a number of times, it usually ends with disagreement or assertions that either the PPA is actually already doing what is suggested....

Not really. All I ever see are posts of what the final result should look like, rather than posts on how to get there and who is volunteering to do the work.

...or its not a strength of poker players so we shouldnt try it.

That's the response that a post like "PPA sucks because they can't get 10,000 poker players to show up at rallies." In other words, rather than it being our fault that this isn't happening, sometimes the reason lies within the strengths of the player base. If you disagree, please post specific ideas that someone is willing to go out and do that PPA failed to support.

Rob Chapman had some ideas on things we can do in KY and he sent me his ideas. When something like that happens, here's what one can expect:

Rob Chapman (RGC2005) and me meeting today to discuss his ideas on grassroots

No need to go through it again. I support the PPA as they certainly are doing more for poker players than anyone else. Im building up a contact base of WA players, and if I move there hopefully can help get something that looks like a real grassroots effort going. For now I'll hope our lobbyists are working the backrooms and making something happen.

Excellent. Please contact Drew, Skallagrim and me with your specific ideas going forward to we can champion them.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

There is a big difference here.

A group of WA poker players getting themselves organized, coming up with a plan to do something, and asking the PPA for help getting it done, will find the PPA very responsive and very helpful.

A group of WA players posting on an internet forum "hey, how come the PPA isn't doing anything" are going to get the type of response you have noted.

I truly hope LG and/or FGBHooper and/or others who want change are able to organize players and do something in WA.

Skallagrim

Well said Skall!

[JPFisher55]

I was under the impression that instead of appealing the Rousso case to SCOTUS, the PPA was going to start a new one in federal court. Maybe I was mistaken.

[LetsGambool]

If I can get a group of players together (and Im not there yet so its very hard to do), I'll be happy to loop the PPA in when I think it will be useful. Players Ive heard from are sort of mixed on the PPA anyways, so Im not sure having a separate effort isnt a bad idea anyways.

My ideas have been trying to put pressure on the casino interests that put the law into place and to get player organized to meet with lawmakers face to face, the latter of which I laid out specific ways in which I felt the PPA could be supportive. They were both panned, which is fine of course maybe they are dumb ideas.

If I have any idea how to do anything related to poker in KY, you will obviously be the first person that I contact. Unfortunately, while Lee Rousso put a lot of time and effort for our cause into his court case, there doesn't seem to be similar grassroots efforts going on in WA. From what I've seen, there are a number of WA players willing to help but who just dont know what to do, and thats a shame.

[TheEngineer]

Originally Posted by LetsGambool

If I can get a group of players together (and Im not there yet so its very hard to do), I'll be happy to loop the PPA in when I think it will be useful. Players Ive heard from are sort of mixed on the PPA anyways, so Im not sure having a separate effort isnt a bad idea anyways.

My ideas have been trying to put pressure on the casino interests that put the law into place and to get player organized to meet with lawmakers face to face, the latter of which I laid out specific ways in which I felt the PPA could be supportive. They were both panned, which is fine of course maybe they are dumb ideas.

When ideas are presented as "PPA sucks because they aren't.....," (and I'm not saying you posted that) they tend to get panned. I don't know of an instance where someone wanted to volunteer to pitch in and that planned effort was panned.

If I have any idea how to do anything related to poker in KY, you will obviously be the first person that I contact.

I'm on the Board. I can champion efforts outside of KY.

[LetsGambool]

You have enough on your plate. I'm just going to do what I can on my own. If I find something that works (or that dont), I'll share best practices.

Thanks to the poker law, I am making efforts to not have to move there, at least not full time. I think leaving WA is the absolute best thing poker players can do at this point if they have any choice to be honest as our efforts so far arent amounting to much.

[TomG]

Originally Posted by LetsGambool

Interesting idea. Have you checked with legal counsel about the charities' exposure here?

I think maybe it would work better with pooled donations since Im not sure the director would want to go through the hassle for a small number.

I was hoping someone with actual legal expertise would have commented. I personally have no idea on the legal exposure of the charity. Ideally, the letter would be crafted by a legal professional in order to clearly detail the non-profits role. Still, I would expect charities to be skittish, especially with the recent news of other non-profits such as ACORN and Planned Parenthood knowingly covering up illegal activity.

The logistics themselves, however, would not be too difficult. One person would need to take the point and handle the discussion with the director of the charity. Then broadcast the charity's information with the various pro-poker groups (the Facebook group, PPA, 2+2, etc). Individuals could then donate to the charity directly and include a memo in the "Donation on Behalf of" field to indicate they are a poker player.

First, what do people think of the idea? Will it work? Would it create good will for internet poker on any level? Would it draw positive media attention? Basically, is this a good idea or not?

[LetsGambool]

I wonder if its more efficient to just hold an event with a poker tournament and a raffle or something of that nature with proceeds being donated to the charity and all players signing on to say they received the money from playing internet poker in WA. Your idea may work as well or better, but if we could figure out ways to get the player base to turn out and meet up with each other that would be good as well.

We'd need a lawyer to speak to the liability issue, for both players and the charity.

I think we'd also need to find a friendly media outlet or two as well to make sure the message comes across as we intend.

Thanks for coming up with a creative initiative and for engaging, hope others will chime in!

[TomG]

The goal is to point to the state's budget problems. Specifically programs and charities that are being forced to shrink and/or become eliminated due to budget shortages. Now here is a group of people that are eager and willing to help cover those costs in the form of new taxes in exchange for regulation. A charity tournament is fine but it involves 1) greater effort on the the part an organization 2) more effort on the part of the poker players to actually show up and play in a -EV game and 3) a less focussed point with respect to government's benefit from legalization.

As for media, Danny Westneat is a regular columnist for the Seattle Times. He is sympathetic to both the cause of internet gambling and often writes about creative solutions to government issues. Another example of a potentially friendly media outlet is the television show Up Front with Robert Mak.

[LetsGambool]

OK, I see your angle now, that makes sense.

I wish we knew what type of legislation the PPA was pushing i.e. whether its a straight repeal, a poker carveout, or something that looks like regulated intrastate WA poker with taxed online poker. If I understand this correctly, it supports the third type listed (or a Federal bill opt-in/opt-out process)?

[johncan]

You could promote online poker as a more ecological alternative. As in I can sit at home and play versus getting in my car and burning fuel to get to the casino.

Not sure that it would work but just an idea. Especially if the person you were trying to convert was on the fence.

I know a lot of the folks out here in PNW are very eco friendly. Hell we never put salt on the roads in Seattle for a long time because of a concern for the Sound.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...edit24icy.html

They do not even want you to drive to the train station to take the light rail. They want you to walk or bike. LoL
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...pic16txt1.html

[TomG]

I like it. Let's call internet gambling "green gambling." But I think the issue of ecology really points to the larger issue of the overall benefits of e-commerce. The Puget Sound area is one of the leading areas of internet commerce and technology. Why not Washington? The relatively technologically savvy population in the area provides the ideal base for the development of in-state e-gaming.