"Holy Rollers" documentary, advantage play vs. religion

[z4reio]

Originally Posted by LT22

from what I saw in the documentary they were always trying to establish new, little churches

Seemed like a one or two were, yes. Many non-denominational Christians that don't agree 100% with the ideals of their elders, split off into forming another church. That doesn't mean they are trying to form a cult (or whatever point you're trying to make). Many do, of course, but that's just a testament to how open biblical doctrine is when you take a book and form your own beliefs based on interpretation.

[ScreaminAsian]

goddamn cafeteria catholics

[zerosum79]

Originally Posted by z4reio

Being born again is not being a fundamentalist. All Christians are born again - that's just simply being baptized as an adult, proclaiming Jesus as your savior when you're old enough to know what you're doing. Same thing as a Catholic getting confirmed.

Your belief that born again Christians are Fundamentalist Christians, is similar to them thinking poker players are degenerate evil gamblers.

This is simply not true. The term Born Again is a term that is largely associated with evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. I am a Christian, and I am not a "born again" Christian in my eyes or in the eyes of my church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_ag...hristianity%29

"In recent history, born again is a term that has been widely associated with the evangelical Christian renewal since the late 1960s, first in the United States and then later around the world. Associated perhaps initially with Jesus People and the Christian counterculture, born again came to refer to a conversion experience, accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be saved from Hell and given eternal life with God in Heaven, and was increasingly used as a term to identify devout believers.[12] By the mid 1970s, born again Christians were increasingly referred to in the mainstream media as part of the born again movement."

[z4reio]

Hey, bro. Were you baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as an adult in the Christian faith?

Then you are born again (according to the Bible).

I'm not going to get into an argument over semantics with you, but you should probably read the rest of that wiki page. Just because fundamentalists call themselves born again (correctly), doesn't mean all born agains are fundamentalists.

[sba9630]

Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian

goddamn cafeteria catholics

Haven't heard that in YEARS!

[zerosum79]

Originally Posted by z4reio

Hey, bro. Were you baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as an adult in the Christian faith?

Then you are born again (according to the Bible).

I'm not going to get into an argument over semantics with you, but you should probably read the rest of that wiki page. Just because fundamentalists call themselves born again (correctly), doesn't mean all born agains are fundamentalists.

No, I was baptized as a child and my church does not require you to be baptized more than once. The fact that you don't get this flaw in your argument is not surprising. It probably points to the fact that you grew up in some form of a evangelical church, and therefore is probably the reason you think that the people in this movie are "just Christians."

The term "born again" is typically only even used by people of a fundamentalist doctrine. Most other denominations don't place such a heavy emphasis (if at all) on it. If you even looked at the wikipedia page I posted, it lays it out clearly.

For example, are Catholics "born again Christians?" Are Anglicans? Are Presbyterians? Are Lutherans? I think they would all say no.

The fact is that Christianity is a bigger and more diverse set of individuals that does not all conform to your beliefs. You even pointed it out yesterday.

"Seemed like a one or two were, yes. Many non-denominational Christians that don't agree 100% with the ideals of their elders, split off into forming another church. That doesn't mean they are trying to form a cult (or whatever point you're trying to make). Many do, of course, but that's just a testament to how open biblical doctrine is when you take a book and form your own beliefs based on interpretation. "

Yet somehow you seem to lack the fundamental understanding that your version of Christianity is not one that everyone prescribes to?

Regards,
zero

[z4reio]

No, I was raised Catholic, never confirmed, and went to a Christian university where I got to meet all kinds of whack jobs (and many normal, like you, Christians who detest being thought of as born again, yet were baptized in the Christian church).

Again, from your link:

The origin of the term "born again" is the New Testament: "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again.'"

And you still refute this is a matter of semantics?

[VP$IP]

Originally Posted by zerosum79

For example, are Catholics "born again Christians?" Are Anglicans? Are Presbyterians? Are Lutherans? I think they would all say no.

Originally Posted by z4reio

The origin of the term "born again" is the New Testament: "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again.'"

They don't agree with everything he said.

[z4reio]

Originally Posted by VP$IP

They don't agree with everything he said.

If by "they" you mean the religions you quoted and "he" you mean Christ, then no, not everything, but 100% yes to what you quoted about being born again.

All of those religions have a confirmation ceremony, and those who don't confirm are always baptized. Baptism (even as a child) is being born again.

Again, semantics.

[VP$IP]

Originally Posted by z4reio

Again, semantics.

semantics

Major differences in theology.

Once they accept infant baptism as the norm as a method of perpetuating the religion, they reject the idea of a second baptism, and they recoil from the phrase "born again", even though "you-know-who" said it.

[z4reio]

Originally Posted by VP$IP

semantics

Major differences in theology.

Once they accept infant baptism as the norm as a method of perpetuating the religion, they reject the idea of a second baptism, and they recoil from the phrase "born again", even though "you-know-who" said it.

Which ones reject the idea of a second baptism? Even the Jewish religion has a confirmation.

[VP$IP]

Ever hear of the Nicene Creed?

[z4reio]

Originally Posted by VP$IP

Ever hear of the Nicene Creed?

Yes.

"We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins."

Christ was baptized. You're not going to find a Christian based faith that doesn't baptize. If you want to debate whether baptizing is being reborn, then fine, but I'll just resort to the book Christians use to make their points.

[zerosum79]

A couple of points and then I am done with this argument. I am old enough now that I don't find arguing religion as entertaining as I once did.

As a Catholic, you know that other Christians are not considered Christian by the catholic church right? The point of the Nicene Creed is to prove you are a "true christian" because you conform to the exact version of "correct" Christianity. Other evidence includes the inability of Christians to take the sacraments and get married in a Catholic church.

The way that I used "born again" is an accepted use of the phrase by most people. I am going to copy this again since you seem to have missed it the first time.

"In recent history, born again is a term that has been widely associated with the evangelical Christian renewal since the late 1960s, first in the United States and then later around the world. Associated perhaps initially with Jesus People and the Christian counterculture, born again came to refer to a conversion experience, accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in order to be saved from Hell and given eternal life with God in Heaven, and was increasingly used as a term to identify devout believers.[12] By the mid 1970s, born again Christians were increasingly referred to in the mainstream media as part of the born again movement."

Whether you believe or not that you need to be "born again" to be a Christian, most non-fundamentalist Christian denominations do not use this term as the main method of self-identification.

The term itself and saying probably in fact come from a addition to Christian tradition and were not likely something Jesus actually said. From the same wikipedia article...

"The quotation from the Gospel of John has raised some questions about the meaning and authenticity of the phrase "born again". In the chapter, Nicodemus is puzzled and asks Jesus what he means by saying that "Ye must be born again". He questions: "How can a man re-enter his mother's womb?" Scholar Bart D. Ehrman says that this confusion is because in Greek (the language of the gospel) the word again is ambiguous. It might mean again or a second time or from above, which would explain Nicodemus' confusion. However, the Jews at Jesus' time were actually speaking Aramaic, in which language there would not have been a double meaning. Ehrman says that this raises questions about the authenticity of the dialogue, the meaning of the words, and, therefore, the use of the phrase.[36]

A 19th century source notes that the phrase was not mentioned by the other Gospellers, nor by the Apostles except Peter. "It was not regarded by any of the Evangelists but John of sufficient importance to record." And, without John, "we should hardly have known that it was necessary for one to be born again." This suggests that "the text and context was meant to apply to Nicodemus particularly, and not to the world." Otherwise, it would have been mentioned more often. [37]"

OK, so semantics aside, I still stand by my statement and believe that not only did I use the terminology correctly, it is very likely that the Christians portrayed in this movie are of a fundamental evangelical nature. Yes maybe they are not as extreme as the FOF, Chad Hills, God Hates F&ges types, but they are likely cut from that cloth.

The fact is that I don't wander around telling everyone I meet that I am a "Christian Poker Player." The though would not cross my mind because I don't wander around telling everyone I am Christian. However, evangelicals do wander around telling everyone. Its part of their deal. "Hi I am ... have you accepted Jesus Christ into your life?" Every other sentence is God told me this, or I think God wants that. This is not normal behavior for anyone other than Christian extremists. It is peppered throughout the movie. I think its hard to argue with, but then again most people love to argue about religion.

Anyways, nothing I have said is intended to be anything other than an observation. I respect that you have a different view. If at the end of the day we agree to disagree it is fine. Its probably not worth continuing down this path though since ultimately it is likely to be a bunch of going around in circles.

zero

[z4reio]

Originally Posted by zerosum79

As a Catholic, you know that other Christians are not considered Christian by the catholic church right? The point of the Nicene Creed is to prove you are a "true christian" because you conform to the exact version of "correct" Christianity. Other evidence includes the inability of Christians to take the sacraments and get married in a Catholic church.

I'm not a practicing Catholic. Most Christians don't view Catholics as Christians either. Let's start some wars...

Originally Posted by zerosum79

The way that I used "born again" is an accepted use of the phrase by most people. I am going to copy this again since you seem to have missed it the first time.

I don't know why you keep saying this; I've known this to be the case for decades. Yes, I know a lot of people view "born agains" as their own sect of Christianity. The fact is, from your quote yet again, "Associated perhaps initially with Jesus People and the Christian counterculture, born again came to refer to a conversion experience, accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" means you are born again.

Just depends on your connotation of the phrase. I don't disagree that you wouldn't want to be viewed as one (nor that you consider yourself one). I know many born again Christians that gamble, drink, don't preach and tell me to **** off at the drop of a hat, but I'm probably a poor influence. It wouldn't surprise me if the different connotations of the phrase are regional, as well.

Originally Posted by zerosum79

The term itself and saying probably in fact come from a addition to Christian tradition and were not likely something Jesus actually said. From the same wikipedia article...

Meh, if you want to go down that route, we may find out he didn't say anything.