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The Poker Legislation Forum, Brought to You by the PPA Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 04-10-2012, 03:42 PM   #1
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Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

Player A is American, and he ships money to his bro, Player E in England then E gets on Stars, allows “view” of his screen, and A views, and tells Player E what to do on a mic, is anything being violated?

No law has been violated here.

Clearly, what we’ve just witnessed, though, is a less convenient version of an American depositing on Stars, and an American playing on Stars.

Any real crime that is committed cannot be duplicated with small inconveniences and made into “not a crime.” Obvious crimes are like murder, rape, etc….how would you change a few things around keeping the same perp(s)/victim(s), and make it not a crime?

Other minor ones like, say, possession of an illegal narcotic. What would you do? Have someone else possess it? Then they are clearly committing the crime.

E is not committing fraud. Neither is Stars, neither is Player A. Neither is the bank.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:51 PM   #2
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

You might be violating the TOS and end up getting your funds confiscated by PokerStars.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:02 PM   #3
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaaron View Post
Player A is American, and he ships money to his bro, Player E in England then E gets on Stars, allows “view” of his screen, and A views, and tells Player E what to do on a mic, is anything being violated?

No law has been violated here.

Clearly, what we’ve just witnessed, though, is a less convenient version of an American depositing on Stars, and an American playing on Stars.

Any real crime that is committed cannot be duplicated with small inconveniences and made into “not a crime.” Obvious crimes are like murder, rape, etc….how would you change a few things around keeping the same perp(s)/victim(s), and make it not a crime?

Other minor ones like, say, possession of an illegal narcotic. What would you do? Have someone else possess it? Then they are clearly committing the crime.

E is not committing fraud. Neither is Stars, neither is Player A. Neither is the bank.
Sorry, but your rather novel definition of a "real" crime is not widely accepted in legal circles. "Going to a minor incovenience" is not likely an valid defense where the underlying activity would itself be a crime.

Nice try, but it won't withstand meaningful analysis.

(FWIW, neither is "possession of an illegal narcotic" considered a "minor" crime in the US. Generally, if you want to "grade "crime, the accepted major/minor distinction is between felonies and misdemeanors and traffic offenses.)
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:45 PM   #4
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

Someone simply playing for you, not aiding you, violates TOS? I could believe it, but I could also see it not being written about. It's one thing to be given advice on hands, it's another for someone to click what you tell them to click?

Donkey, I didn't mean to trivialize any crimes. I suppose I just felt that possession vs. murder was different levels.

You did debate the point I was trying to make. My point was that, what crime was committed? In the situation I described, who would be arrested? I realize you say there wouldn't be a valid defense, but you have to be convicted of something first to have to provide a defense, right?
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:54 PM   #5
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

Rape isn't a crime if you go through the "small inconvenience" of gaining consent. Not sure how to spin murder haha
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:52 AM   #6
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

OP who on earth would ever agree to such a thing?
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:48 AM   #7
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

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OP who on earth would ever agree to such a thing?
I just don't think that's relevant to the post. I suppose if you REALLY think no one on the planet would play for someone else along the same lines as someone can't sprout wings and fly, then yes, it's relevant. But, since they're not along the same lines, I think the question has nothing to do with what I'm getting at.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:49 AM   #8
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

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Originally Posted by TheHurricAAne View Post
Rape isn't a crime if you go through the "small inconvenience" of gaining consent. Not sure how to spin murder haha
But, you're not replicating rape when consent is issued.

In the scenario I described, it replicated an American playing on Stars with his own money, and there was nothing anyone could be arrested for.
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Old 04-11-2012, 12:57 PM   #9
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

Yes, a crime in one jurisdiction is still a crime even if that same offense is not criminal in another jurisdiction.
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:09 PM   #10
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

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Yes, a crime in one jurisdiction is still a crime even if that same offense is not criminal in another jurisdiction.
lol, yet, none of what I explained in the OP is a crime.

What jurisdiction would it be a crime if I shipped $$ to my bro, he deposited in his account, and simply clicked what I told him to click (as described in the OP)?
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:13 PM   #11
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

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Originally Posted by jackaaron View Post
But, you're not replicating rape when consent is issued.

In the scenario I described, it replicated an American playing on Stars with his own money, and there was nothing anyone could be arrested for.
Your preposition is misplaced and erroneous:

Bank fraud is one thing up with which legal authorities will not put.
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Old 04-11-2012, 01:34 PM   #12
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

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What jurisdiction would it be a crime if I shipped $$ to my bro, he deposited in his account, and simply clicked what I told him to click (as described in the OP)?
i never said it was.

I said that something that is illegal in a jurisdiction is illegal in that jurisdiction.
If that same thing is legal in another jurisdiction, it is legal there.

Your example, you have moved the event to a new jurisdiction where it is legal, so yes, not a crime.

However, that doesn't change the fact that if you hadn't gone through the small inconvenience of moving jurisdictions, it still would be a crime in the original jurisdiction.

For example, if its illegal to buy fireworks in illinois, but legal in missouri. Just because you live near the border and its easy to drive across the river and buy your fireworks in missouri, that doesn't affect that it is still illegal for you to buy them in illinois.

so - yes, it is a crime (to buy fireworks in illinois) even if a small inconvenience (driving to missouri) would make it not a crime.
Or in your original example, yes it is still a crime (to deposit/play poker in the US) even if the small inconvenience (acting through a proxy in a foreign country) makes it not a crime.

(PS> not debating the factuality of whether or not playing poker is a crime or acting through proxy is a crime.)
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:22 PM   #13
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

I think this does raise an interesting issue, although I can't think of anything useful to come from it beyond discussion.

If it's a ToS violation then it's a ToS violation (and I think it probably is)

I don't know what laws might be broken, but the bank fraud stuff is a little farfetched. Suppose the parties get together once a year or whatever and they exchange cash. Player A lives in the US and instructs Player B for each poker action taken. In return, player B gets X% of the profits.

I haven't seen a post here yet convinces me regarding any violation of laws in this scenario.

I also haven't seen any argument that convinces me it makes any difference.

Edit:
also assume the transactions are documented properly and taxes are paid appropriately and the "business venture" is otherwise properly formed and managed

I also would not dare to say that "small inconveniences make it not a crime" The quick example I can think of is regarding taxes. There are some tax scenarios such as education IRA contributions where the gross income of the contributor can limit the contribution amount. However, the max limit is $2000 (last I remember) so a contributor can give the money to the beneficiary or somebody else who makes the contribution instead. It's a minor inconvenience, but if you skip that step the IRS will not be happy. I don't know where this gets "criminal" but just because it's easy to go around a rule/law doesn't mean that you can just ignore the rule/law.

Last edited by Aruj Reis; 04-11-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:30 PM   #14
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aruj Reis View Post
I think this does raise an interesting issue, although I can't think of anything useful to come from it beyond discussion.

If it's a ToS violation then it's a ToS violation (and I think it probably is)

I don't know what laws might be broken, but the bank fraud stuff is a little farfetched. Suppose the parties get together once a year or whatever and they exchange cash. Player A lives in the US and instructs Player B for each poker action taken. In return, player B gets X% of the profits.

I haven't seen a post here yet convinces me regarding any violation of laws in this scenario.

I also haven't seen any argument that convinces me it makes any difference.

Edit:
also assume the transactions are documented properly and taxes are paid appropriately and the "business venture" is otherwise properly formed and managed

I also would not dare to say that "small inconveniences make it not a crime" The quick example I can think of is regarding taxes. There are some tax scenarios such as education IRA contributions where the gross income of the contributor can limit the contribution amount. However, the max limit is $2000 (last I remember) so a contributor can give the money to the beneficiary or somebody else who makes the contribution instead. It's a minor inconvenience, but if you skip that step the IRS will not be happy. I don't know where this gets "criminal" but just because it's easy to go around a rule/law doesn't mean that you can just ignore the rule/law.
While you are at it, why not also discuss:

If a US commercial airliner, carrying 20 Mexican nationals, 20 US citizens, and 20 citizens of the UK somehow crashes on a February 29th at midnight, exactly on the border between the US and Mexico, where do they bury the survivors ?
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:56 PM   #15
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Re: Is it a crime if small inconveniences make it not a crime?

The idea that if an act which is a crime can become "not a crime" by a change in a trivial circumstance then the act should not be a crime in the first place is a well respected point of political philosophy. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy,_State,_and_Utopia

But as a practical matter philosophical discussions about the proper role of the state in human affairs have virtually no real influence on modern political law making (except maybe to Ron Paul supporters). Politicians love power and use power to enrich themselves and their allies or to demand that their "enemies" submit and conform. The only thing that gets argued about these days is not the proper limits of state power, but how to use the state's unlimited power.

Example 1: conservatives think states rights should allow states to ban abortions. They also think the Federal Government should prevent states from allowing Gay marriage ....

Example 2: liberals think that states' rights should allow for medical marijuana. They also think the Federal government should prevent states from allowing people to go uninsured ....

Skallagrim

PS. The answer to the plane question is: "in the ground."
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