Article in Forbes claims DoJ may repay FTP players based on deposits rather than balances

[insidemanpoker]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanva...winnings-back/

This is an x-post and I am sorry if it belongs in the general thread but this strikes me as a HUGE deal and the community would be greatly benefited by input from the PPA and other legal minds about how serious of a threat exists that American pro's with big balances might not get their money. While it is obviously an absolutely disgusting implication and completely immoral, it sounds like it wouldn't be outright illegal so who knows what to think. I wouldn't post this article if Ifrah wasn't the primary source being cited but because he obviously is involved in all of this, I think this needs to be specifically discussed and any comments would be greatly appreciated.

I hope the PPA makes this their NUMBER ONE priority until it is settled in the RIGHT way rather than exploiting total bull**** just to make some absurd symbolic claims or to pocket more money.

[Go Get It]

Quote from this article:

The big question for Full Tilt’s U.S. players: will they get their poker winnings back? Several sources familiar with the situation say no decision on this vital issue has been made, but there are people at the Department of Justice who are uncomfortable with the idea of paying U.S. players money that was won in online poker games played on Full Tilt’s web site.

[JadeLane]

Could someone from the PPA weight in on this and let us know if this is in fact a legitimate concern?

[Skallagrim]

Some journalists will publish scary speculation just to get more readers. This journalist appears to be one of them. His "sources" are not named and who knows their reason for such speculation.

Ifrah merely states that these issues have not been determined yet, and they haven't. No issue has been determined yet. My information is that DOJ hasn't even named the person who will be responsible for the FTP remission process.

Pappas is quoted in the article and his statements should be the ones taken seriously.

Everything up to now clearly assumes that the DOJ will refund account balances, not deposits. Any other suggestion, especially one centered on deposits will be a practical nightmare and be inconsistent with how everything else is handled.

There is precedent for the situation in the BetOnSports case. Although those poor folks only got a fraction of their balances back after the case was over, it was a fraction of their balances, not a fraction of their deposits.

Skallagrim

[insidemanpoker]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

Some journalists will publish scary speculation just to get more readers. This journalist appears to be one of them. His "sources" are not named and who knows their reason for such speculation.

Ifrah merely states that these issues have not been determined yet, and they haven't. No issue has been determined yet. My information is that DOJ hasn't even named the person who will be responsible for the FTP remission process.

Pappas is quoted in the article and his statements should be the ones taken seriously.

Everything up to now clearly assumes that the DOJ will refund account balances, not deposits. Any other suggestion, especially one centered on deposits will be a practical nightmare and be inconsistent with how everything else is handled.

There is precedent for the situation in the BetOnSports case. Although those poor folks only got a fraction of their balances back after the case was over, it was a fraction of their balances, not a fraction of their deposits.

Skallagrim

God, Skall, thanks a ton for so quickly weighing in. As you can imagine, if the rug is pulled out from some Americans in a disgusting way after everything that has happened thus far, it will take this slowroll to a new dimension but it sounds like you don't think it is a credible concern?

As an aside, I have been a long time contributor to the PPA, I have gotten family and friends to join and multiple people to donate money and I will continue to do so but if there was ever a time I wanted to feel represented in an urgent fashion it is right now to make sure no bull**** goes down here and that ALL Americans with legitimate accounts on FTP are paid their balances in full. No legal mumbo-jumbo, no loopholes, no crap, just give people their money. Please PPA, do everything in your power to make sure this happens.

[DiscoBisco]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

Some journalists will publish scary speculation just to get more readers. This journalist appears to be one of them. His "sources" are not named and who knows their reason for such speculation.

Ifrah merely states that these issues have not been determined yet, and they haven't. No issue has been determined yet. My information is that DOJ hasn't even named the person who will be responsible for the FTP remission process.

Pappas is quoted in the article and his statements should be the ones taken seriously.

Everything up to now clearly assumes that the DOJ will refund account balances, not deposits. Any other suggestion, especially one centered on deposits will be a practical nightmare and be inconsistent with how everything else is handled.

There is precedent for the situation in the BetOnSports case. Although those poor folks only got a fraction of their balances back after the case was over, it was a fraction of their balances, not a fraction of their deposits.

Skallagrim

Is this supposed to make anyone feel better? The way I read this is either we're going to get our deposits only back, OR as the only precedent for this case would suggest, we get a small fraction of our balances back.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

God, Skall, thanks a ton for so quickly weighing in. As you can imagine, if the rug is pulled out from some Americans in a disgusting way after everything that has happened thus far, it will take this slowroll to a new dimension but it sounds like you don't think it is a credible concern?

As an aside, I have been a long time contributor to the PPA, I have gotten family and friends to join and multiple people to donate money and I will continue to do so but if there was ever a time I wanted to feel represented in an urgent fashion it is right now to make sure no bull**** goes down here and that ALL Americans with legitimate accounts on FTP are paid their balances in full. No legal mumbo-jumbo, no loopholes, no crap, just give people their money. Please PPA, do everything in your power to make sure this happens.

The PPA has had a open channel for dialogue with the DOJ for some time. We like to think our use of this channel helped convince the SDNY attorney's to make player repayment one of the main goals of settlement. Still, the actual return of player money will be handled through a different division of the DOJ, and, as I said, specific individuals to lead the process from that division are not even named yet.

In this situation the DOJ is vested with sole discretion, there are no statues or constitutional principles that would allow for a court appeal. That is why I and other PPA officials, and lawyers like Jeff Ifrah, are so reluctant to say anything with certainty about how things will actually play out.

But the PPA/DOJ dialogue will continue. And we will certainly be making known the concerns of players and of course the unfairness and impracticality of remission being based on anything other than balances.

All I can say by way of assurance at this time is that every other related action in this case, and every other similar case, as used player balances as the reference point. I am hopeful that will continue to be the case.

Skallagrim

PS - thanks a lot for your support! I can't yet promise results, but I can promise the PPA will do everything it can to help players through this process.

[DonkeyQuixote]

I recall making a suggestion long ago that the PPA should approach the DOJ and even step up and present itself as a candidate to oversee distribution of funds to FTP US players. (I recall also that different Board members viewed that suggestion of a "role in the process" quite differently, to put it mildly.)

Someone might want to lobby for that first $225 million, paid for FTP assets, to be earmarked legislatively toward FTP US players balances, then quibble about who gets tasked/ hired to oversee claims allocations later.

Pay Players First still seems like a good goal. that way there WOULD be a statute on the books to ensure protection of players' interests.

[LetsGambool]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

Some journalists will publish scary speculation just to get more readers. This journalist appears to be one of them. His "sources" are not named and who knows their reason for such speculation.

Ifrah merely states that these issues have not been determined yet, and they haven't. No issue has been determined yet. My information is that DOJ hasn't even named the person who will be responsible for the FTP remission process.

Pappas is quoted in the article and his statements should be the ones taken seriously.

Everything up to now clearly assumes that the DOJ will refund account balances, not deposits. Any other suggestion, especially one centered on deposits will be a practical nightmare and be inconsistent with how everything else is handled.

There is precedent for the situation in the BetOnSports case. Although those poor folks only got a fraction of their balances back after the case was over, it was a fraction of their balances, not a fraction of their deposits.

Skallagrim

Im quite certian Pappas represents the PPA's viewpoint, and I agree with him

I am however confused why, if no issues have been determined yet, Pappas statements are the ones that matter on this front and its a certainty we're getting back 100 cents on the dollar? It wouldnt surprise me at all that the DOJ is having conversations about trying to not pay out winnings.

That said, I cant imagine how they pay out deposits instead of balances from a practical standpoint. Seems much, much harder to administer: You have to reconcile all accounts instead of just verifying the balance, you have a bunch of zero balance accounts that can now file claims, and since deposits occur before rake, you have to pay more actual cash out the door. We'd be waiting years to get paid back. Its such a pain in the ass though that I think we just get our balances.

Incidentally, the one place I disagree with the PPA on w/r/t this is the timeline...I think we're getting paid back 100 cents on the dollar on balances (although its not risk-free, Id sell at 90 cents today in a heartbeat). I dont think its going to be in close to the 90 days the ROW gets paid back. Carruthers got arrested in 2006, claims were paid out in March of 2011 IIRC.

Now, I dont think we're looking at five years but by the time they figure out how they are paying out, set the process up, pay out the tens of thousands of claims...Id be surprised if we see cash before 2013.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by **********

Is this supposed to make anyone feel better? The way I read this is either we're going to get our deposits only back, OR as the only precedent for this case would suggest, we get a small fraction of our balances back.

Some people can read anything negatively.

The reason the folks in the BOS case only got a fraction of their deposits back was because there was not enough money to go around. That is certainly not the situation with regard to FTP players.

Skallagrim

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by LetsGambool

Im quite certian Pappas represents the PPA's viewpoint, and I agree with him

I am however confused why, if no issues have been determined yet, Pappas statements are the ones that matter on this front and its a certainty we're getting back 100 cents on the dollar? It wouldnt surprise me at all that the DOJ is having conversations about trying to not pay out winnings.

That said, I cant imagine how they pay out deposits instead of balances from a practical standpoint. Seems much, much harder to administer: You have to reconcile all accounts instead of just verifying the balance, you have a bunch of zero balance accounts that can now file claims, and since deposits occur before rake, you have to pay more actual cash out the door. We'd be waiting years to get paid back. Its such a pain in the ass though that I think we just get our balances.

Incidentally, the one place I disagree with the PPA on w/r/t this is the timeline...I think we're getting paid back 100 cents on the dollar on balances (although its not risk-free, Id sell at 90 cents today in a heartbeat). I dont think its going to be in close to the 90 days the ROW gets paid back. Carruthers got arrested in 2006, claims were paid out in March of 2011 IIRC.

Now, I dont think we're looking at five years but by the time they figure out how they are paying out, set the process up, pay out the tens of thousands of claims...Id be surprised if we see cash before 2013.

There was no Isai Scheinberg and PokerStars willing to step in and fix the monetary aspect of the BOS/Carruthers situation.

Just because it is impossible for me at this time to say with 100% certainty that everything will go smoothly and quickly does not mean that the fears being expressed now have any more likelihood of manifesting than the fears that used to be expressed that the FTP/Stars/DOJ deal would never happen in the first place.

Skallagrim

[tamiller866]

Originally Posted by insidemanpoker

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanva...winnings-back/

This is an x-post and I am sorry if it belongs in the general thread but this strikes me as a HUGE deal and the community would be greatly benefited by input from the PPA and other legal minds about how serious of a threat exists that American pro's with big balances might not get their money. While it is obviously an absolutely disgusting implication and completely immoral, it sounds like it wouldn't be outright illegal so who knows what to think. I wouldn't post this article if Ifrah wasn't the primary source being cited but because he obviously is involved in all of this, I think this needs to be specifically discussed and any comments would be greatly appreciated.

I hope the PPA makes this their NUMBER ONE priority until it is settled in the RIGHT way rather than exploiting total bull**** just to make some absurd symbolic claims or to pocket more money.

The primary reason they are using remission is that would be the only way of paying back winnings, if they ordered the people Ifrah works for to pay winnings, they wouldn't be able to accuse the business of being illegal gambling.

So Ifrah is probably spot on that the DOJ had an issue with PS being ordered to repay US winnings, but that should not be taken as evidence that they have a problem with winners being paid - just so long as they are the ones making the payments to those 'victims'.

[LetsGambool]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

There was no Isai Scheinberg and PokerStars willing to step in and fix the monetary aspect of the BOS/Carruthers situation.

Just because it is impossible for me at this time to say with 100% certainty that everything will go smoothly and quickly does not mean that the fears being expressed now have any more likelihood of manifesting than the fears that used to be expressed that the FTP/Stars/DOJ deal would never happen in the first place.

Skallagrim

So you are saying players are getting back 100% of balances at the end of this, whenever that is, full stop?

EDIT: Obviously you cant guarantee this process goes quickly and smoothly. My understanding is that some people have life changing money wrapped up on Full Tilt. IMO 95% chance of getting repaid on the balance vs. 100% chance of getting repaid on the balance is real risk. Someone might take 80 cents on the dollar now if its the former.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by DonkeyQuixote

I recall making a suggestion long ago that the PPA should approach the DOJ and even step up and present itself as a candidate to oversee distribution of funds to FTP US players. (I recall also that different Board members viewed that suggestion of a "role in the process" quite differently, to put it mildly.)

Someone might want to lobby for that first $225 million, paid for FTP assets, to be earmarked legislatively toward FTP US players balances, then quibble about who gets tasked/ hired to oversee claims allocations later.

Pay Players First still seems like a good goal. that way there WOULD be a statute on the books to ensure protection of players' interests.

It was about that time I stopped replying to you directly. Here I am probably making a mistake by making an exception to that rule.

1) I will not rehash history except to say that any sane person in your position would admit that you were wrong and I was right. If we had followed your advice we would still be in court litigating over the rights to some $60 million seized by the DOJ and hoping against the weight of case law that a court would let that PARTIAL sum go back to players.

2) I have already said that the PPA has been and will continue to dialogue with the DOJ over player interests in this matter. It has gone on since shortly after BF. Now most regular readers here know it is par for the course for you to ignore such statements and state blindly that such things have not or will not happen unless we at the PPA first acknowledge our simpleness and praise you for your insight. But since this issue will be of concern to readers outside of the usual group, that point should be made clear: SINCE BLACK FRIDAY THE PPA HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE PLAYER CONCERNS KNOWN TO THE DOJ AND TO SUGGEST WAYS FOR THE DOJ TO HELP ANSWER THOSE CONCERNS.

3) The terms of the settlement already expressly provide for the $225 million to be paid by Stars in the next few days to be the sum of money 100% available for return to players through the remission process - about 40 million more than the estimates of what US players are owed.

4) Statutes on the books provide for complete DOJ control of this process. You really think it is possible to get Congress to write new statutes regarding this situation and money in any reasonable time? Really?

Skallagrim

[Six Finger Nate]

It's definitely something to be a little uncomfortable about, but the last thing the DOJ wants is bad press from this. Can you imagine the uproar if ROW players got paid in full and US players got shafted?

Also, imagine the hassle of only letting players cash out up to their total deposits. Would players with a zero balance but 5k in deposits gave a right to compensation?

Been thinking about a bit and I just can't see this scenario happening.