Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-04-2013, 08:50 AM   #1
sofocused978
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
sofocused978's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tampa Baby Baby
Posts: 6,233
Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

So after reading this weekend about what Party and now Revolution are doing with their player pools I'm a bit concerned. Basically if you are a winning player/player with good stats on these networks you will be separated from the fishy players on the network and will only be able to play with players their software deems is of equal skill.

I know that some US Casinos have agreements to use the Party/Bwin software. Please tell me this **** won't fly here in the US once regulated. Anything in the NV/NJ legislation that would deal with crap like this?
sofocused978 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 10:53 AM   #2
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,227
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Nothing in any US legislation or regulations addresses this issue, and I doubt we will see anything that does. It will probably be left as an internal control procedure for individual sites that is either approved or disapproved by the regulators through normal regulatory procedures. For the time being, I don't think that any US-regulated site will implement any segregation of their player pools, as they compete in the newly opened US regulated market for market share. It may become an issue a few years down the road, as the market leaders get established and as player pools reach a size where segregation could be considered.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 11:34 AM   #3
LastLife
Pooh-Bah
 
LastLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,466
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

If this happens in the states, we'll be able to piss of the regulators until the end of time.
LastLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 12:43 PM   #4
Richas
veteran
 
Richas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: On the learning curve
Posts: 3,240
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife View Post
If this happens in the states, we'll be able to piss of the regulators until the end of time.
I am going to go all contrarian again.

First it is still not clear precisely what Party are doing and "segregation by win rate" is just an assumption to date. Indeed the only statement Party have made is that new players are free to choose any table.

Second the usual refrain is that regulation should be minimal and that a market system offering choice is the preferred way to keep sites in line. Banning player pools or leagues would be a step beyond regulation to protect the vulnerable, the underage, game operation, protecting consumer balances or any reasonable area where regulation is justified. this is a business decision, a marketing decision with a site wanting to appeal to a specific niche market. Controlling that is way beyond a regulatory remit.

Finally. We face a situation where one site has a near monopoly. Restricting smaller competitors from following their business plan to compete with that monopoly would not be in the interests of players, competition or freedom.
Richas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 01:24 PM   #5
LastLife
Pooh-Bah
 
LastLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,466
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that assumes we'll have a free enough market to punish any site that would do it. If Caesars would do this, with the WSOP brand that will always be a top tier site for amateurs, then there isn't much we as players could do other than go to the regulator.

I don't know why I am complaining, though. This is good policy for me.
LastLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 02:34 PM   #6
Gags30
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,364
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastLife View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that assumes we'll have a free enough market to punish any site that would do it. If Caesars would do this, with the WSOP brand that will always be a top tier site for amateurs, then there isn't much we as players could do other than go to the regulator.

I don't know why I am complaining, though. This is good policy for me.
i highly doubt that caesars will be the number one top site.

sure, plenty of amateurs will flock there because of the wsop brand. but just based on how caesars runs things (i mean, look at the exact same boring schedule that the wsopc is every stop)....sites like stars and borgata will have creativity and give hte players what they want, making them top contenders
Gags30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 03:16 PM   #7
LastLife
Pooh-Bah
 
LastLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,466
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Lets start the derail of this thread. Stars is banned from Nevada and still has an uphill battle in NJ. Borgata is owned by Boyd/MGM though a subsidiary and both of them have a partnership with Bwin, the company that started this discussion in the first place.

Caesars has 25k rooms in Vegas alone, WSOP, one of(if not the) largest rewards memberships in the world, and is easily the most prepared US gaming interest for the future IPoker market. Saying they will be anything other than the top provider in the US market is probably wrong. Saying that any other company will be able to be more creative is wishful thinking. The only thing that is going to hold Caesars back is their future bankruptcy, but even then creditors stand to gain a whole lot more by allowing Caesars to continue their expansion online.

My previous post was simply an example of what could happen wrt this issue in a highly segregated market like we will have in the near future. I highly doubt Caesars will ever do anything this stupid. They stand to make several times more off the IPoker market by funneling players to their casinos.
LastLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 08:14 PM   #8
mikeymer
veteran
 
mikeymer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: on that real world grind.
Posts: 3,150
Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

Hopefully Party can't segregate players in nj like they are doing now.
mikeymer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 10:26 PM   #9
amazinmets73
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,651
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

I can't imagine a PS run site ever segregating by skill level.
amazinmets73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 03:54 AM   #10
Schwatt
Pooh-Bah
 
Schwatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MN
Posts: 4,521
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

This Fair Play crap is absolutely awful, but the "beginners tables" Party has/had isnt a terrible idea.

They had those like 8+ years ago IIRC. Nothing over 50nl, and you had to have an account <30 days old.

I don't think many would object to something like that. New Fish get a chance to get their feet wet at micros without sharks gobbling them up instantly. (They don't have to play the tables of course, its just an option)

I also doubt there would be many people making new accounts every 30 days just to play in fishy microstakes games.
Schwatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 07:53 AM   #11
raradevils
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
raradevils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: waiting NJ to add more states
Posts: 7,216
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwatt View Post
This Fair Play crap is absolutely awful, but the "beginners tables" Party has/had isnt a terrible idea.

They had those like 8+ years ago IIRC. Nothing over 50nl, and you had to have an account <30 days old.

I don't think many would object to something like that. New Fish get a chance to get their feet wet at micros without sharks gobbling them up instantly. (They don't have to play the tables of course, its just an option)

I also doubt there would be many people making new accounts every 30 days just to play in fishy microstakes games.
I'm not sure this will be an option. One very good aspect of regulation and ID required to open accounts.
raradevils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 08:30 AM   #12
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,227
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Please contain any further discussion of PS entry to NJ to this thread:
AGA Attempts to Block PS Entry to NJ

Last edited by PokerXanadu; 03-05-2013 at 08:46 AM.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 04:14 PM   #13
rwperu34
Pooh-Bah
 
rwperu34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Please Help w the Daily Action Plan
Posts: 4,209
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwatt View Post
This Fair Play crap is absolutely awful, but the "beginners tables" Party has/had isnt a terrible idea.

They had those like 8+ years ago IIRC. Nothing over 50nl, and you had to have an account <30 days old.

I don't think many would object to something like that. New Fish get a chance to get their feet wet at micros without sharks gobbling them up instantly. (They don't have to play the tables of course, its just an option)

I also doubt there would be many people making new accounts every 30 days just to play in fishy microstakes games.
This highlights a pretty important point. There is already a filter that keeps the best players from the worst. It's called "stakes", or "table limit".
rwperu34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 10:13 PM   #14
DjSkyy
veteran
 
DjSkyy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: No longer, strictly speaking, busto
Posts: 2,734
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

i've thought of several scenarios under which us poker could be regulated yet still unbeatable.

this is definitely one of them.
DjSkyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 10:33 PM   #15
Sowers
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 123
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Can't really see this being a good thing except for new players, often which get bored and quit - I'd say the people that get addicted and love playing are in the minority so eventually those players just leave anyway...
Sowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 11:23 PM   #16
yogaflame
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 21
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Does anyone know if your tier is determined by your BB/100 or total net winnings? Like, could just grind away loses at 2nl over thousands of hands to stay in the fish tier?
yogaflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 03:31 PM   #17
DjSkyy
veteran
 
DjSkyy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: No longer, strictly speaking, busto
Posts: 2,734
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
Does anyone know if your tier is determined by your BB/100 or total net winnings? Like, could just grind away loses at 2nl over thousands of hands to stay in the fish tier?
lock reps have stated that they have no intention of telling us how the system calculates what we are, or telling us what level we are in.

afaik party is taking the same line.

the system seems to be designed to keep money on the site so it can be raked rather than withdrawn, so i would imagine that net winner/loser is the most important factor.

also note that your question demonstrates that even before this "fair play" is implemented, it's already encouraging people to start figuring ways to game the system. multi-accounting is another way.
DjSkyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 07:06 PM   #18
Nash_equilibria
veteran
 
Nash_equilibria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,513
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

How can players contact the NJ, Nevada and other gaming commissions about their concerns about player segregation? No site should get a US license that practices segregation.

Quote:
We are continually looking for ways to balance our poker room ecology. As we have said before, we are testing various features to make poker a more fun and entertaining game for both new and inexperienced players. Our extensive research shows that new and inexperienced players enjoy the game more and continue playing for longer if in the early stages they play with players of a similar ability, this includes, but is not limited to our welcome lounges.
Nash_equilibria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 11:18 PM   #19
ScreaminAsian
For President
 
ScreaminAsian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: champagne campaign
Posts: 16,672
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
we are testing various features to make poker a more fun and entertaining game for both new and inexperienced players
well those groups probably don't overlap, so this effects 2 different types of players, as opposed to only one type, 'experienced players', whom we can easily discount using various mathematical algorithms (2>1, et al).
ScreaminAsian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2013, 11:36 PM   #20
Willyoman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Willyoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,466
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjSkyy View Post
the system seems to be designed to keep money on the site so it can be raked rather than withdrawn, so i would imagine that net winner/loser is the most important factor.
Exactly. It sounds so very, very scummy.

Making people of the same skill / win-rates play against each other is incredibly insidious - it promotes more break-even play and maximizes rake. They don't want good players stacking bad players. They want the money on the site to go back and forth among players as many times as possible to generate rake.
Willyoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 01:36 AM   #21
ih8ustfu
grinder
 
ih8ustfu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 618
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

we already have segregation of the players. the stakes you play puts you in the same skill set to a certain extent.
ih8ustfu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 01:39 AM   #22
ih8ustfu
grinder
 
ih8ustfu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 618
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjSkyy View Post
lock reps have stated that they have no intention of telling us how the system calculates what we are, or telling us what level we are in.

afaik party is taking the same line.

the system seems to be designed to keep money on the site so it can be raked rather than withdrawn, so i would imagine that net winner/loser is the most important factor.

also note that your question demonstrates that even before this "fair play" is implemented, it's already encouraging people to start figuring ways to game the system. multi-accounting is another way.
this reminds me of bovada.
ih8ustfu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 10:40 AM   #23
white_lytning
grinder
 
white_lytning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miami
Posts: 516
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

The U.S. poker market has several problems that stem from the limited market created by the intrastate system. Companies want to invest in a product that will last and have been trying to come up with ways of doing that. If they can increase the amount of rake collected by limiting or making it harder for regs to take that money out of play they will try to do that.

There has been talk about segregating player pools within a site for a while. The talks are usually limited to optional segregation like others are saying. They don't want to force the new/bad guys to play with each other because part of the appeal of poker is being able to sit and play with the best. At the same time they want to prevent really good players from sitting with terrible ones and cleaning them out which is contrary to what most of us think is a key part of this game.

One of the problems with discussing regulation on this site is that a lot of us are obviously poker players and only think about how things will effect us individually as poker players. People tend to forget that good sharky regs that don't lose are bad for poker economies. This is a particular problem in small markets because of how quickly a large reg populations will dry up the economy. The U.S. poker market is going to be fragmented among states with varying populations and pieced together over time. We need to try to keep a more open mind to some of the things you are going to hear about and remember that the goal should be to get as many state operating legal poker rooms as possible. The more open the market the better for players.
white_lytning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 01:08 AM   #24
Nash_equilibria
veteran
 
Nash_equilibria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,513
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Are the following the correct links to make sure that sites that use player segregation do not get licensed in the US?
- New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement
- Nevada Gaming Commission
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
It sounds so very, very scummy.

Making people of the same skill / win-rates play against each other is incredibly insidious - it promotes more break-even play and maximizes rake. They don't want good players stacking bad players. They want the money on the site to go back and forth among players as many times as possible to generate rake.
Nash_equilibria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2013, 07:12 AM   #25
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,227
Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash_equilibria View Post
Are the following the correct links to make sure that sites that use player segregation do not get licensed in the US?
- New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement
- Nevada Gaming Commission
These are your best contacts to make comments/suggestions about the regulations:

info@njdge.org
liaison@gcb.nv.gov

However, your statement above won't make much sense to them. Sites are not getting licensed in the US. US casinos are getting the licenses. The poker platform providers like bwin.party, 888, etc. are getting approved to be service providers to the casinos.

What you want to ask for is a regulation that forbids the licensed operators from implementation of segregated tables among the players within one state based on level of skill. Word it carefully so that they don't mix it up with the idea of segregation of players from different jurisdictions.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online