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Old 09-21-2009, 12:35 PM   #201
vegasbound
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Is anyone going back from before 2008? I just found out about all this crap today... how am I supposed to know my peak poker balances from '03 and on? I have no idea what they were. I play on a variety of sites with various balances, especially through the years. This burden seems ludicrous.

All the taxes I have filed are accurate and I have the sessions logged... will sending in these forms for just '08 suffice? What is everyone else doing?
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:04 PM   #202
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I'm also enclosing a semen sample. You never can be too sure.
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:34 PM   #203
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

"also, with the penalties associated with this form, they would have to PROVE you were attempting to hide income via poker accounts to receive that 100k or jail time penalties right? I mean if you're just a naive poker pro who has a history of filing ur poker income with the IRS they're not going to drop the hammer right?"

i have to agree with this guy... busting the overseas accounts was because people were using them to HIDE income... if you are paying correct taxes on your poker income, and you have an unreported overseas account generating this income i don't think it will be too relevant. Just my two cents... it worries me more sending in the docs and red flagging myself by doing so
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Old 09-21-2009, 07:39 PM   #204
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

The penalty for non-willful reporting isnt $100K/account, but it is $10K/account
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Old 09-26-2009, 09:53 PM   #205
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

This is what the tax amnesty foreign account reporting deadline is all about:

http://www.reuters.com/article/gover...54018620090926

Poker players could get caught up in it due to all the foreign-source money transfers.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:57 PM   #206
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

BODOG --- could anyone get an address for Calvin?

Seriously, I sent an email asking for the address and they came back with usual "we abide by laws of another country -- not yours"

Please post if you have it. I need to mail it asap. Thanks.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:58 PM   #207
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Where can I get this Fbar form or the form you need for this whole dea?
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:02 PM   #208
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by mr.giggles View Post
Where can I get this Fbar form or the form you need for this whole dea?
Google is your friend:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:43 PM   #209
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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BODOG --- could anyone get an address for Calvin?

Seriously, I sent an email asking for the address and they came back with usual "we abide by laws of another country -- not yours"

Please post if you have it. I need to mail it asap. Thanks.
From Russ Fox's website*:

Bodog
Bodog Sportsbook, Casino, and Poker
Oficentro Sabana Sur
San Jose, Costa Rica

*Note: This list is presented for informational purposes only. It is believed accurate as of July 1, 2009. However, I do not take responsibility for your use of this list or for the accuracy of any of the addresses presented on the list.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:59 AM   #210
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Oh man.. am I late on this one.

I was reading/fast skimming through this thread and couldn't/didn't find the answer to the following:

In the event that we are late on turning this in, what should we expect to happen if we turn it in late?
If it helps at all with the answer, I have been reporting my taxes.

Can someone save me the trouble of reading through all of this slowly to get the answer to this?
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:41 PM   #211
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

We are past the amnesty date. Consult a tax attorney.
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:24 AM   #212
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Bump since this year's deadline will be here before we know it.

I saw a link in this thread suggesting that the addresses for some of the better known poker sites were listed on Russ Fox's web site, but that link is no longer valid.

Since I'm sure a lot of people are going to be asking about this, can someone please re-post the full addresses for Full Tilt Poker and PokerStars?

Also, it's my understanding that if you had during the previous year $15,000 in Full Tilt Poker at one point and $100 in PokerStars, you would need to list the account information for both poker sites, even though your PokerStars balance was never greater than $10,000. Please let me know if this is incorrect.
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:39 AM   #213
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by theballer84 View Post
Bump since this year's deadline will be here before we know it.

I saw a link in this thread suggesting that the addresses for some of the better known poker sites were listed on Russ Fox's web site, but that link is no longer valid.

Since I'm sure a lot of people are going to be asking about this, can someone please re-post the full addresses for Full Tilt Poker and PokerStars?
The old link is probably no longer valid because he has posted an updated list for 2010 here: http://taxabletalk.com/?p=3180
Quote:
Originally Posted by theballer84 View Post
Also, it's my understanding that if you had during the previous year $15,000 in Full Tilt Poker at one point and $100 in PokerStars, you would need to list the account information for both poker sites, even though your PokerStars balance was never greater than $10,000. Please let me know if this is incorrect.
Your understanding is correct. You would name all foreign bank accounts that had any positive balance, as long as the total of the maximum balances of all of your foreign bank accounts during the year exceeded $10,000.
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Old 03-04-2010, 03:21 AM   #214
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Thanks for the quick response.

I feel like an idiot who needs my hand held for posting this, but is Loughlinstown part of the mailing address or is that the town/city? I thought Dublin would be the city, and the box for "State" would be left blank, but then if Loughlinstown isn't part of the address, where would it go?

I hate taxes.
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Old 03-04-2010, 04:35 AM   #215
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Nevermind, I just noticed that there's an entry key at the top of the web page implying that Loughlinstown is the city and Dublin is the state/territory.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:26 PM   #216
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Any updates?
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:15 PM   #217
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

No, we still have to report all foreign accounts. Rules are changing in an upcoming year that will change filing requrements for higher value accounts and likely drastically increase the chances of an audit.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:15 PM   #218
Russ Fox
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I don't really want to bring back a thread from 2009, but it's back to the past courtesy of a US District Court. On Wednesday, a District Court ruled that PokerStars and Party Poker are "banks" and FBARs must be filed for those accounts.

A little history: Back in 2009 the group at the IRS that handles FBARs said that poker accounts must be included. Come 2011, the regulations were changed by FINCEN (the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network). Their description said that such accounts didn't have to be included. I emailed the IRS and they said they didn't want FBARs submitted for such accounts.

An individual in Northern California was charged for nonwillful violation of the FBAR rules for three accounts: FirePay, PokerStars, and Party Poker. The defendant argued that these account were not such accounts; the DOJ said otherwise. The court granted summary judgement to the government.

(I've linked to the decision. A longer analysis I wrote is here.)

While I have sent questions to the IRS on whether they want these accounts reported, as of now I'm forced to conclude that such accounts must be reported. This would not only include PokerStars and Party Poker, but current US-facing offshore sites such as Bovada. (This would not include US sites such as Party Poker New Jersey and wsop.com.)

Interestingly, an argument could be made (based on the judge's ruling) that gaming sites would need to be reported. Based on a literal reading of this judge's decision, say you play games on AcmeGaming.com, a UK-based game site. (It could be a skill gaming site, or perhaps a massive multi-player online game.) Since these sites allow deposits and withdrawals, they would also meet the technical description of a foreign financial account. But I digress....

In any case, I will update on this as I have more news.

-- Russ Fox

Last edited by Russ Fox; 06-05-2014 at 08:18 PM. Reason: fix typo.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:38 AM   #219
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by Russ Fox View Post
...
While I have sent questions to the IRS on whether they want these accounts reported, as of now I'm forced to conclude that such accounts must be reported. This would not only include PokerStars and Party Poker, but current US-facing offshore sites such as Bovada. (This would not include US sites such as Party Poker New Jersey and wsop.com.)...
Are you certain that all the US sites fall outside the filing requirement? Have you verified that the foreign platform providers (888.com, bwin.party, ongame) are holding the deposited player funds inside the US, and exclusively through US-incorporated entities?
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:14 AM   #220
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Are you certain that all the US sites fall outside the filing requirement? Have you verified that the foreign platform providers (888.com, bwin.party, ongame) are holding the deposited player funds inside the US, and exclusively through US-incorporated entities?
The Nevada sites are owned by US entities (Ultimate, WSOP.com). My understanding of the New Jersey sites is that the money is taken in by a casino; that each casino has partnered with a software partner (e.g. Party Poker) but that the casino is the licensee. Assuming it's something like that, the NJ sites would be US-based entities.

I know almost nothing about Delaware and its site.
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:09 AM   #221
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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The Nevada sites are owned by US entities (Ultimate, WSOP.com). My understanding of the New Jersey sites is that the money is taken in by a casino; that each casino has partnered with a software partner (e.g. Party Poker) but that the casino is the licensee. Assuming it's something like that, the NJ sites would be US-based entities.

I know almost nothing about Delaware and its site.
The NV sites are owned by the US casino corps, but monies may still be banked by the foreign service providers who operate some of the sites. I don't myself know one way or the other.

In NJ, the US casinos are the licensees, but once again most of the sites are operated by the foreign service providers. The monies might be banked by them offshore. There are even a couple sites operating under the foreign brand names (nj.partypoker.com, 888poker.com), albeit under the US casino license.

In DE, the sites are operated as skins for the casinos, on one network, operated by 888.com under contract with the state lottery. Operations are by 888.com, and again the monies might be banked offshore.

If the FBAR reporting requirement for offshore poker accounts hold up, it may be important to know who is really holding the money for the US sites. Is it strictly held by US incorporated subsidiaries of the offshore service providers, or are the funds commingled with their foreign accounts?

Last edited by PokerXanadu; 06-07-2014 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:30 AM   #222
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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The NV sites are owned by the US casino corps, but monies may still be banked by the foreign service providers who operate some of the sites. I don't myself know one way or the other.

In NJ, the US casinos are the licensees, but once again most of the sites are operated by the foreign service providers. The monies might be banked by them offshore. There are even a couple sites operating under the foreign brand names (nj.partypoker.com, 888poker.com), albeit under the US casino license.

In DE, the sites are operated as skins for the casinos, on one network, operated by 888.com under contract with the state lottery. Operations are by 888.com, and again the monies might be banked offshore.

If the FBAR reporting requirement for offshore poker accounts hold up, it may be important to know who is really holding the money for the US sites. Is it strictly held by US incorporated subsidiaries of the offshore service providers, or are the funds commingled with their foreign accounts?
I don't believe it's important. Let's say you deposit $100,000 at your local Florida Bank of America branch. BofA takes that money and moves it to its' Luxembourg subsidiary. Do you have a reportable foreign financial account? No. Your money was deposited with the US Bank of America, not the Luxembourg Bank of America.

As long as the deposits are made with US companies (a certainty in Nevada and probably true in New Jersey), they are not considered foreign financial accounts. Now, if a New Jersey casino takes those funds and moves it to Luxembourg (or anywhere outside the US), they have a reportable foreign financial account but the player doesn't.

-- Russ Fox
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:36 AM   #223
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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I don't believe it's important. Let's say you deposit $100,000 at your local Florida Bank of America branch. BofA takes that money and moves it to its' Luxembourg subsidiary. Do you have a reportable foreign financial account? No. Your money was deposited with the US Bank of America, not the Luxembourg Bank of America.

As long as the deposits are made with US companies (a certainty in Nevada and probably true in New Jersey), they are not considered foreign financial accounts. Now, if a New Jersey casino takes those funds and moves it to Luxembourg (or anywhere outside the US), they have a reportable foreign financial account but the player doesn't.

-- Russ Fox
Makes sense. Thanks, Russ.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:48 PM   #224
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Pretty screwed up that the IRS can explicitly answer a question, then go butttnaaahhh and hit you for $10K a pop.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:54 PM   #225
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Does the judgment take into account the 2011 update from FINCEN given that the litigation was over 2006/2007 account reporting?

Sort of glad I ended up out of playing for material money online given this ruling.
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