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Old 07-04-2009, 06:33 AM   #176
sba9630
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by a nonymous View Post
I saw the article linked above, but can someone please link me to an IRS page that shows the deadline has been extended to Sept 23?

ty
.

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers

Quote:
Some taxpayers recently learned that they have an FBAR filing obligation but they do not have sufficient time to gather the information necessary to properly file the FBAR by the June 30, 2009 due date.

On June 24, 2009, the IRS offered the following advice.

Taxpayers who reported and paid tax on all their 2008 taxable income but only recently learned of their FBAR filing obligation and have insufficient time to gather the necessary information to complete the FBAR, should file the delinquent FBAR report according to the instructions and attach a statement explaining why the report is filed late.

Send a copy of the delinquent FBAR, together with a copy of the 2008 tax return, by September 23, 2009, to the Philadelphia Offshore Identification Unit, at the following address:

Internal Revenue Service
11501 Roosevelt Blvd.
South Bldg., Room 2002
Philadelphia, PA 19154
Attn: Charlie Judge, Offshore Unit, DP S-611

In this situation, the IRS will not impose a penalty for the failure to file the FBAR.

Additionally, if all 2008 taxable income with respect to a foreign financial account is timely reported and a United States person only recently learned they have a 2008 FBAR obligation and there is insufficient time to gather the necessary information to complete the FBAR, the United States person may follow the procedures set forth above and no penalty will be imposed.

For 2008 tax returns due after September 23, 2009, the tax return does not need to accompany the 2008 FBAR.

Related Items:

* Voluntary Disclosure
* Voluntary Disclosure Questions & Answers (Revised June 24, 2009)

Page Last Reviewed or Updated: June 25, 2009
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:49 AM   #177
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I talked to my accoutant about this yesterday. It seems most people in this thread are listing pokerstars address as the address of the financial institution and poker screen names as the account number. My account thinks that Pokerstars doesn't actually hold our money but they have a bank that does and that we are supposed to list the bank and actual bank account number. Of course, it seems like Pokerstars is reluctant to give out this information so I'm not sure what to do. Did everyone list Pokerstars (or whatever poker site they play on) as the financial institution or did anyone put down an actual bank that the poker sites use?

Also, maybe Russ can answer this. You mentioned previously that if all your accounts add up to over 10k, then u have to list all accounts, even if one of them has only 1$ in it. My question is, what if i had over 10k in a pokerstars account, and i have other accounts such as a full tilt account, but my tilt account balance is 0$ and i did not use it at all in 08- would i still have to list my full tilt account?
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:36 PM   #178
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

We're never going to get that bank account information.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:03 PM   #179
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

How in the heck could this possibly be interpreted to include online poker sites:

Q.What is a financial account?
A. A “financial account” includes any bank, securities, securities derivatives or other financial instruments accounts. The term includes any savings, demand, checking, deposit, or any other account maintained with a financial institution or other person engaged in the business of a financial institution. Individual bonds, notes, or stock certificates held by the filer are not a financial account nor is an unsecured loan to a foreign trade or business that is not a financial institution.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...210249,00.html
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:48 PM   #180
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by beeschnuts View Post
I talked to my accoutant about this yesterday. It seems most people in this thread are listing pokerstars address as the address of the financial institution and poker screen names as the account number. My account thinks that Pokerstars doesn't actually hold our money but they have a bank that does and that we are supposed to list the bank and actual bank account number. Of course, it seems like Pokerstars is reluctant to give out this information so I'm not sure what to do. Did everyone list Pokerstars (or whatever poker site they play on) as the financial institution or did anyone put down an actual bank that the poker sites use?
The money is being held by (using your example) PokerStars. PokerStars is responsible for the money. It's their address that counts.

If you have money in a foreign bank, say the Royal Bank of Scotland, that money is rarely at the bank. Just like an American bank, RBS will loan money and otherwise try to make more on interest than the interest they pay you.

Quote:
Also, maybe Russ can answer this. You mentioned previously that if all your accounts add up to over 10k, then u have to list all accounts, even if one of them has only 1$ in it. My question is, what if i had over 10k in a pokerstars account, and i have other accounts such as a full tilt account, but my tilt account balance is 0$ and i did not use it at all in 08- would i still have to list my full tilt account?
Only an active account needs to be reported. A zero-balance account, assuming it never had money in it during 2008, does not need to be reported.

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Originally Posted by pianospike View Post
How in the heck could this possibly be interpreted to include online poker sites:

Q.What is a financial account?
A. A “financial account” includes any bank, securities, securities derivatives or other financial instruments accounts. The term includes any savings, demand, checking, deposit, or any other account maintained with a financial institution or other person engaged in the business of a financial institution. Individual bonds, notes, or stock certificates held by the filer are not a financial account nor is an unsecured loan to a foreign trade or business that is not a financial institution.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...210249,00.html
Two reasons. First, the Treasury and IRS are judge and jury. They've said they are. They get to interpret the law that Congress made. If you don't report it, you may be subject to a fine and penalty. It's pretty clear that after the limited foreign account amnesty is over (that's why the extension deadline is September 23rd) that the IRS will be cracking down on this. If you get fined your recourse then would be to take it to a court. It takes a lot of money to fight the government.

Second, US casinos are classified as financial institutions under various laws. I've felt for some time that it was logical to conclude that foreign casinos are just as much financial institutions as US casinos. (Now, it is reasonable to wonder why an American casino is considered a financial institution; you can blame money laundering laws and the Mob's control of Vegas in the 1960s for that.) Finally, now that the sites are offering echecks and edeposits--services associated with banking--the sites begin to even look a little like financial institutions.

-- Russ Fox
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:01 PM   #181
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Are people going back and filing for past years?
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Old 07-07-2009, 10:25 PM   #182
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by Russ Fox View Post

Second, US casinos are classified as financial institutions under various laws. I've felt for some time that it was logical to conclude that foreign casinos are just as much financial institutions as US casinos.

-- Russ Fox
i suggest it's not logical at all. according to the bank secrecy act, which is the underlying statute at work here for the fbar, only casinoes/card rooms (including indian) that are licensed or that are otherwise designated as gaming establishments under state law[s] are statutorily defined as a "financial institutions."

accordingly, foreign based gaming establishments-- because they are not licensed and/or are not recognized as gaming establishments by any state--are outside the scope of the act and are not within the statutory "financial institution" designation.

but assuming the irs' position really is that americans have a mandate to submit fbars for their online poker playing, why is it that i can't find a single pronouncement from the irs concerning this supposed mandate? they do not hesitate to mention in fbar related publications that offshore derivatives and checking accounts, for example, are "financial accounts" cuz they are provided by "fiancial institutions" but make no mention of offshore casinoes and cardrooms. imo the fbar reporting for offshore poker play is a baseless position.

Last edited by Robin Foolz; 07-07-2009 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:10 PM   #183
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Sigh.

It's your choice on whether to report these or not. You may want to read the posts on page 7 of this thread. Sure, you're not likely to get caught. But the penalties if you do get caught are draconian.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread Congress delegated the interpretation of this law to the IRS and the Dept. of the Treasury. Both agencies now think these accounts should be reported. It's clear you don't think they do. If you're unlucky enough to be audited, I wish you the best with your view. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and if you're unlucky enough to get fined because you didn't file the FBAR, don't expect any sympathy from the IRS.

-- Russ Fox
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:33 PM   #184
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Both agencies now think these accounts should be reported.
i'm not against these agencies thinking. i think our guvment and these agencies should do more of that.

but what i really care about is whether there is mandate, a law, regulation, a court ruling setting precedent that says what u say we should do. so far u have failed to provide any evidence to substantiate u're claim.

i would have expected at least a irs pronouncement. the irs releases those all the time. u mean to tell me out of the thousands of pronouncements the irs has released these past years not a single one talks about fbar reporting for offshore poker play? how odd.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:49 PM   #185
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I filed one of these for my Neteller Account when it was frozen, and am now going to file it for my poker account. My question is this: it states that they want you to file a note with your TDF 90-22.1 if you are mailing it after June 30th, but before September 23rd (the amended deadline). Exactly what should be included in this note?

Also should we include anything else with our form?

Thanks guys.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:03 PM   #186
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Just a bump for the big article in the WSJ today about the expanded FBAR requirements.

The IRS has decided they want a slew of accounts reported, not just for 2008 but for the prior six years. They have given an extension to 9/23 for people to get their FBAR requirements in compliance by filing delinquent forms, assuming all taxes on the accounts were paid. The extension was given because the IRS made a whole slew of accounts subject to FBAR requirements, and did so on a June 12th conference call with the reports due June 30th.

So for those that are taking the approach "the IRS has never said these are reportable, so I dont have to report them", know that the IRS has just changed the rules for a number of different foreign holdings, not just online poker accounts, and that they ABSOLUTELY expect compliance, and I think they want it from 2003 forward.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:16 AM   #187
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

i just checked the FBAR Faq on the irs website. No specific mention of poker accounts. I don't understand why they can't just update their site, especially if they've recently made changes to the status of other types of accounts...
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:25 AM   #188
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Because even the June 12th call on these other accounts wasnt, AFAIK, written guidance. Just an IRS panel interpretation which is not legally binding on the IRS. The rules here are pretty vague and the tax authorities basically have carte blanche to interpret them however they choose. Right now they are choosing to cast a very, very wide net. I believe I read one statement that tax-exempt non-profits may have to file FBARs for certain foreign investments, which is clearly absurd.

That said, the expansion should mean the old canard about filing the FBAR=auto audit is definitely no longer going to be true.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:32 PM   #189
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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IMO this poster is obviously correct, regardless of whether he is a professional or not. No honest taxpayer is ****ing going to jail and getting a 100k fine because they didn't understand to report a poker site as a foreign bank account, unless perhaps there is some insanely large money in this account.
or unless the NY prosecutor's office decides you are easy pickins. Yeah, they probably don't have jurisdiction but the point is we have one example of the feds doing something that appears to have a shaky legal basis merely because it looks to put money in their pocket.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:49 PM   #190
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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The IRS has decided they want a slew of accounts reported, not just for 2008 but for the prior six years. .
Ah nothing like an good ol'fashion ex post facto ruling to instill respect for the government in us!

5 years ago you had poker accounts that had peak balances in excess of $10k but you didn't keep/collect the relevant information because you were not required to. Now, when you don't report those accounts because you don't have proper documentation you are a criminal. Nice.

Thank goodness I'm a microstakes player and am sure I've never had $10k online. I have no beef with paying my taxes (and let me tell you, I pay plenty) but I despise these rules that waste my time with paperwork.

I would love it if, when the UIGEA was repealed, "licensed sites" would report appropriate information on a 1099-gamble form that would obviate the need to FBAR and track sessions for said gaming site. Then the sites could do the work of assigning a dollar value to that monkey or basket of cookies you bought with FPPs rather than you having to fill out yet more paperwork.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:10 PM   #191
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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I never said for a second that I don't believe that they should be reported, if you believe that this is what the IRS is saying. I just find that hinting that someone might get thrown in jail for ten years and have to pay 100k for failure to do so, even if it's an unbelievably remote pipe dream, is silly. More likely the penalty would be a much more reasonable amount given the nature of the action, and because of this it makes sense to report. Also it's nice to follow the law when you can.

Seriously what's with your attitude and this ridiculous counterattack that I'm suggesting no one follow this law? Just because I don't believe the IRS won't put me in prison for 10 years for something, doesn't mean I'm not going to do it. There are other more minor penalties that would be annoying, and that are also realistic. If you simply said you might be fined, then that's a reasonable statement.
Jail, Id be shocked.

That said, it seems like FBARs are the IRS number one priority now and agents arent being given much leeway on the $10K civil penalty. So if you have seven or eight online accounts, you might be looking at $70-$80K in non-willful failure to file fines.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:12 PM   #192
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
or unless the NY prosecutor's office decides you are easy pickins. Yeah, they probably don't have jurisdiction but the point is we have one example of the feds doing something that appears to have a shaky legal basis merely because it looks to put money in their pocket.
On the other hand, they could have done the same with Neteller info and, AFAIK, they havent to date.
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Old 09-20-2009, 09:29 AM   #193
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

posted this in HS, someone suggested I post here too. sorry for the bump

did you guys also send something to:

Internal Revenue Service
11501 Roosevelt Blvd.
South Bldg., Room 2002
Philadelphia, PA 19154
Attn: Charlie Judge, Offshore Unit, DP S-611

see link:
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/...210174,00.html

or just the

U.S. Department of the Treasury
P.O. Box 32621
Detroit, MI 48232-0621

address found on the actual form?

I'm not clear on whether I am supposed to do just the second address or both. my tax accountant isn't sure either. I know, get a new tax accountant. I have to send on Monday, so that really isn't an option for me

would really appreciate any advice, or contact info for someone I can ask. PMs are fine

Ty.
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Old 09-20-2009, 09:37 AM   #194
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Given that it's the FBAR group
I originally thought that people kept misspelling the name.... and having read this, I still think we're missing a "u"

.. and I think funkyj agrees with me
;P
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Old 09-20-2009, 09:42 AM   #195
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by Russ Fox View Post
(Now, it is reasonable to wonder why an American casino is considered a financial institution; you can blame money laundering laws and the Mob's control of Vegas in the 1960s for that.) Finally, now that the sites are offering echecks and edeposits--services associated with banking--the sites begin to even look a little like financial institutions.)
Personally, when I see 8-10 figures moving through an institution, I'm auto-assuming it's SOME type of financial institution
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Old 09-21-2009, 09:10 AM   #196
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

IRS extends tax amnesty deadline to oct 15

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...58K1O620090921
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:32 AM   #197
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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IRS extends tax amnesty deadline to oct 15

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...58K1O620090921
I saw this today too, but did not think that it had anything to do with the same FBAR Form 90-22.1 from that we've been discussing here...anyone confirm or deny? Isn't this just the relatively recent tax AMNESTY program...? Rather than the FBAR requirement that's always been in existence...?
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Old 09-21-2009, 11:18 AM   #198
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Yes it does, the amnesty relates to catching up on delinquent FBAR filings, with penalties if you have not reported income and an explanation for the delinquency otherwise. Its the same form.
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Old 09-21-2009, 11:26 AM   #199
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

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Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
Yes it does, the amnesty relates to catching up on delinquent FBAR filings, with penalties if you have not reported income and an explanation for the delinquency otherwise. Its the same form.
So the deadline for filing the 90-22.1 is now October 15th?
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Old 09-21-2009, 11:37 AM   #200
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Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Accompanied by a reason as to why you are filing late and sent to a special unit set up by the IRS/Treasury. Also, its not a postmarked deadline, its a received deadline.

Seriously though, get a tax professional, the penalties for not filing are absurd and potentially life changing. Its worth paying for good advice.
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