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Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 04-09-2012, 08:37 PM   #1
P5-133XL
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Internet gambling has lost their collective way

I'm sorry, but I feel that the PPA has already lost the fight and it does not matter what any of us peons do anymore. They lost it when the players didn't get their money back after Poker stars and FTP were closed down. The fact that they didn't indicates that those two companies didn't have the minimum cash reserves that they should have maintained. It would seem to indicate that that internet poker wasn't the ethical business that they promoted and the Federal Govt. was "right" in what they did to close them down.

To me, it is really hard to justify legalizing, even in a regulated way. The govt. passes laws against particular behavior all the time. It regulates where necessary to keep business's running ethically where self regulation hasn't worked. Regardless, there will always be unethical business and unethical people striving to bypass whatever rules exist. How does one guaranty to the public that they will never be shafted again?

If you want the Govt. to change its collective mind, then the industry needs to correct the injustices of the past to help indicate that they can be ethical in the future. It can't just be about promotion and getting enough people and legislators in your corner so that they can pass legislation legalizing it. There has to be more...

As a gambler, suppose someone ripped you off. Would you just blindly repeat the process or would you require some form of guaranty before gambling with them again? Would you not require, to start with and as a minimum that you would be compensated for the previous ripoff? In addition add some form of external guarantee that such a ripoff could not be repeated? In the current state of affairs, as far as I can tell, none of that is happening. So I can't see how anything done by the PPA matters.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:42 PM   #2
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Dont eat paint chips kids.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:44 PM   #3
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quality first post.

For the reocord, PokerStars players got paid (maybe you missed the email).

What would you like the PPA do? Hunt down Ray Bitar, and shake the coins out of his pockets to pay the players back?

A US regulated site would have to answer to the US government if they pulled the crap that Bitar and company pulled at FTP. That is the plus to US regulation. That is why virtually every online player would support it even if they got screwed by FTP.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:50 PM   #4
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

You lost credit when you said Pokerstars players were stiffed. That was one of the few bright spots in this whole mess when PS players DID get their accounts recovered. Do a fact check before your next speech and people will actully pay some attention to your ideas.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:57 PM   #5
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Stars did return funds.

No way the PPA can be held responsible for the actions of off-shore, private companies. The PPA is an advocacy group, not a police agency with unlimited international power. Try the the Justice League.

Players getting ripped off is a good argument for regulation, not the other way around.

I feel bad for anyone who got ripped off, but the crime does not support op's conclusions
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:14 PM   #6
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by P5-133XL View Post
To me, it is really hard to justify legalizing, even in a regulated way. The govt. passes laws against particular behavior all the time. It regulates where necessary to keep business's running ethically where self regulation hasn't worked. Regardless, there will always be unethical business and unethical people striving to bypass whatever rules exist. How does one guaranty to the public that they will never be shafted again?
Headexplode.gif

In b4 all accounts with less than 100 posts agree completely.

Edit
Did you just call Internet gambling a person?
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:24 PM   #7
P5-133XL
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

I did not get my money back from PS. I just searched my Email and there is no E-mail from them regarding money. There is a 4/21/2011 Email from PPA saying that everyone would be getting their money but that is it.

P.S. there wan't much there (I think it was ~$6.00) because I never deposited anything. The money was virtual in that it was from winning free events and maybe that makes a difference. Regardless, in my mind is was "my money". It is not the amount, rather is is the principal of the thing.

As to what I think the industry should do is to reimburse the players from their own money, if necessary. I agree that the PPA is not the responsible organization. I don't believe that they can go around picking someone else's pocket no matter how justified. Unfortunately, I also don't believe the industry can accomplish what they need to accomplish to legalize if they don't reimburse. So I end up with reimbursing out of their own $$$ instead of spending on promotion and the like. It isn't fair but it is the way it is.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:29 PM   #8
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Email support@pokerstars.com and I'm sure they'll be happy to send you your 6 dollars.

Edit
It might be support@pokerstars.eu now
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:39 PM   #9
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by P5-133XL View Post
I did not get my money back from PS. I just searched my Email and there is no E-mail from them regarding money. There is a 4/21/2011 Email from PPA saying that everyone would be getting their money but that is it.

P.S. there wan't much there (I think it was ~$6.00) because I never deposited anything. The money was virtual in that it was from winning free events and maybe that makes a difference. Regardless, in my mind is was "my money". It is not the amount, rather is is the principal of the thing.

As to what I think the industry should do is to reimburse the players from their own money, if necessary. I agree that the PPA is not the responsible organization. I don't believe that they can go around picking someone else's pocket no matter how justified. Unfortunately, I also don't believe the industry can accomplish what they need to accomplish to legalize if they don't reimburse. So I end up with reimbursing out of their own $$$ instead of spending on promotion and the like. It isn't fair but it is the way it is.
What companies from the "industry" should be responsible to pay this back?
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:45 PM   #10
Tiltmonkey2
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Op you should do better research before making an argument. Simply put, you do not know what your talking about.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:45 PM   #11
betty345
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
It regulates where necessary to keep business's running ethically where self regulation hasn't worked.
/thread
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:02 PM   #12
afrojojo
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

i need the lock poker emoticons to respond to op, particularly, the "fart"
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:03 PM   #13
P5-133XL
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjmj90 View Post
What companies from the "industry" should be responsible to pay this back?
Does it matter who? PPA wants something from the US govt., i.e. legitimacy for the industry. I don't believe it can get that without the money being paid back. So it gets stuck with the bill, even though it is not responsible.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:16 PM   #14
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

So by your own reasoning:

You pay Bob for a steak.
Bob rips you off and doesn't give you the steak.

Therefore:
You can't buy a steak from Joe until Bob gives you the steak he owes you.
Furthermore, Joe should give you the steak that Bob owes you.

G-u-a-r-a-n-t-e-e.

I have to admit, I do agree that in hindsight it looks like the DOJ was right in going after Full Tilt. However, I think they were accidentally right.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:18 PM   #15
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by P5-133XL View Post
The fact that they didn't indicates that those two companies didn't have the minimum cash reserves that they should have maintained. It would seem to indicate that that internet poker wasn't the ethical business that they promoted and the Federal Govt. was "right" in what they did to close them down.

To me, it is really hard to justify legalizing, even in a regulated way. The govt. passes laws against particular behavior all the time. It regulates where necessary to keep business's running ethically where self regulation hasn't worked. Regardless, there will always be unethical business and unethical people striving to bypass whatever rules exist. How does one guaranty to the public that they will never be shafted again?

If you want the Govt. to change its collective mind, then the industry needs to correct the injustices of the past to help indicate that they can be ethical in the future.
Is this even English?
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:37 PM   #16
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Can a mod please move this thread to NVG? I mean, here in Poker Legislation there are a few posters that are cynical and sarcastic and there is some occasional trolling. But all in all, its a pretty tame bunch and frankly, we are just not equipped to deal with this type of thread here. We don't have the complete disregard of common decency that they have. fail.jpg just doesn't cover it imo. We need NVGtards working around the clock to really to this thing justice.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:45 PM   #17
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by P5-133XL View Post
I'm sorry, but I feel that the PPA has already lost the fight and it does not matter what any of us peons do anymore. They lost it when the players didn't get their money back after Poker stars and FTP were closed down. The fact that they didn't indicates that those two companies didn't have the minimum cash reserves that they should have maintained. It would seem to indicate that that internet poker wasn't the ethical business that they promoted and the Federal Govt. was "right" in what they did to close them down.

To me, it is really hard to justify legalizing, even in a regulated way. The govt. passes laws against particular behavior all the time. It regulates where necessary to keep business's running ethically where self regulation hasn't worked. Regardless, there will always be unethical business and unethical people striving to bypass whatever rules exist. How does one guaranty to the public that they will never be shafted again?

If you want the Govt. to change its collective mind, then the industry needs to correct the injustices of the past to help indicate that they can be ethical in the future. It can't just be about promotion and getting enough people and legislators in your corner so that they can pass legislation legalizing it. There has to be more...

As a gambler, suppose someone ripped you off. Would you just blindly repeat the process or would you require some form of guaranty before gambling with them again? Would you not require, to start with and as a minimum that you would be compensated for the previous ripoff? In addition add some form of external guarantee that such a ripoff could not be repeated? In the current state of affairs, as far as I can tell, none of that is happening. So I can't see how anything done by the PPA matters.

Just my 2 cents
Aside from the sheer lack of factual accuracy, all this post demonstrates is that the OP has no clue what the PPA actually does or has done over the last 6-7 years. OP also has no clue why the PPA can't "get anything done" or how the U.S. government works.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:44 AM   #18
LetsGambool
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by P5-133XL View Post
Does it matter who? PPA wants something from the US govt., i.e. legitimacy for the industry. I don't believe it can get that without the money being paid back. So it gets stuck with the bill, even though it is not responsible.
This might be the worst thread in the history of Poker Legislation.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:55 AM   #19
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
This might be the worst thread in the history of Poker Legislation.
wow... he really did write that
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:39 AM   #20
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
This might be the worst thread in the history of Poker Legislation.
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised because the title is in my view accurate, but the opening argument is all sorts of f***ed
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:45 AM   #21
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

he makes several great points. thank you, op.

did the FTP bastards get you for much? I'm glad to hear you never deposited on pokerstars.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:53 AM   #22
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

and I'm gonna blow your mind right now: Chris ferguson and Howard lederer were on the board of directors of the PPA the whole time they were thieving our plentiful deposits.

now, I don't know if it was a FairPlayUSA type situation with the board, like I don't know if all the members were bothered to be kept abreast of all company actions, but, basically:

PPA=FTP=using our money to fund a war on traditional values in DC, leaving us all penniless and forced to repeatedly deposit on sites run by the government, also the rake is too high.

I'll see you in the morning. I HOPE YOU CAN FIND SLEEP WITH THIS KNOWLEDGE IN YOUR BRAINCASE.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:54 AM   #23
DrewOnTilt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
This is the worst thread in the history of Poker Legislation.
FYP
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:00 AM   #24
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

OP;

Assuming you are in the US, there are three cash out options:
  1. Direct Bank Transfer* - Minimum cash out: $1.00
  2. Check - Minimum cash out: $100.00
  3. Wire Transfer - Minimum cash out: $50,000.00

*The only option you have is #1. I'm guessing since your $6.00 was won via free rolls, PokerStars doesn't have your bank account info. Good luck setting that up now (i.e., I wouldn't waste my time).

Quote:
I did not get my money back from PS. I just searched my Email and there is no E-mail from them regarding money. There is a 4/21/2011 Email from PPA saying that everyone would be getting their money but that is it.
There was extensive communication from the PPA, PokerStars and others regarding cash outs.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:55 PM   #25
tangled
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Re: Internet gambling has lost their collective way

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian View Post
he makes several great points. thank you, op.

did the FTP bastards get you for much? I'm glad to hear you never deposited on pokerstars.
If he had deposited on stars, he would of received his $6 from freerolls
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