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Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 06-17-2017, 12:45 PM   #1
nzautra
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How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

I've been playing a lot of volume on Ignition and ACR for the past two years. After relocating to MX to play SCOOP, and subsequently explaining to friends and family why I relocated, they often follow this up with, "but weren't you playing online in the states before? How does that work?"

I explain to them what I think I know about the situation: it is not illegal for US players to play on sites like ACR and Ignition; ACR and Ignition 'interpret the laws differently'; or whether what ACR and Ignition are doing is legal is somewhat ambiguous. After several attempts at this, however, I've realized I don't actually know how ACR and Ignition legally operate while allowing US players.

It's also not particularly comforting to have personally experienced some questionable actions with both sites: seeing credit card deposits show up on statements as totally bogus purchases, or for ACR customer service reps to instruct you to tell your bank that the deposits you request are for "sports equipment."

So what's the real story? Any legal scholars out there who can fill us in, or point me to the actual, well-defined reasons ACR and Ignition can still operate?
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Old 06-17-2017, 03:51 PM   #2
ScreaminAsian
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

you've described some pretty explicit bank fraud itt
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:04 PM   #3
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

While there is still some "gray area" for U.S. players depending on in which state the player is located, the type of banking deceptions by the sites you describe are exactly the sort of illegal dodges in which PokerStars and Full Tilt were engaging. I doubt there is any jurisdiction in the U.S. where the actions of these sites in taking US players and hiding their banking transactions would pass a legal litmus test. Bottom line, what ACR and Ignition are doing is not legal in the U.S. But they aren't located in the U.S. and continue to evade U.S. law enforcement. So far.

Whether or not your play from the U.S. is legal depends on the laws of the state where you are located, and the legal interpretation of those laws:

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:07 PM   #4
nzautra
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian View Post
you've described some pretty explicit bank fraud itt
On account of those sites? Perhaps. As I have read elsewhere, this is nothing new. I'm certainly not the first to notice these actions by both Ignition and ACR. That's why both sites are now pushing for bitcoin. As a poker player, I don't think I'm doing a service to the community to pretend as if this stuff isn't happening.
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:27 PM   #5
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
While there is still some "gray area" for U.S. players depending on in which state the player is located, the type of banking deceptions by the sites you describe are exactly the sort of illegal dodges in which PokerStars and Full Tilt were engaging. I doubt there is any jurisdiction in the U.S. where the actions of these sites in taking US players and hiding their banking transactions would pass a legal litmus test. Bottom line, what ACR and Ignition are doing is not legal in the U.S. But they aren't located in the U.S. and continue to evade U.S. law enforcement. So far.

Whether or not your play from the U.S. is legal depends on the laws of the state where you are located, and the legal interpretation of those laws:

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/
Thank you for your very helpful response. I can only imagine that the risk these sites face for utilizing these deceptive banking practices must either be incredibly low, or non-existemt. Otherwise, why would they continue to conduct business this way?
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:57 AM   #6
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

It doesn't take a legal scholar.

Offering gambling to players in states in which you are not licensed to do so is illegal. So those sites are violating state and federal (IGBA) gambling laws by offering games to those players.

Now, how would you prosecute a case against an offshore operator? That is where it gets tricky. Calvin Ayre (created Bodog, which spun off to Bovada, and then sold off to Ignition) is still wanted by the US authorities, but there is little chance they ever see him.

Making the sites stop is difficult. The only real way is to intercept the money. That is why UIGEA was established, to make intercepting the money easier. But you need a snitch, someone who can testify to payments, and the ways those payments are disguised ("Black Friday Chad" - http://diamondflushpoker.com/2012/11...ie-speaks-out/)

Ignition and ACR seem to be moving toward full Bitcoin processing, indicating that traditional means are becoming less viable.

In the end, those sites will fail, and bugger off with the money, as we've seen so many do



Quote:
Originally Posted by nzautra View Post
I've been playing a lot of volume on Ignition and ACR for the past two years. After relocating to MX to play SCOOP, and subsequently explaining to friends and family why I relocated, they often follow this up with, "but weren't you playing online in the states before? How does that work?"

I explain to them what I think I know about the situation: it is not illegal for US players to play on sites like ACR and Ignition; ACR and Ignition 'interpret the laws differently'; or whether what ACR and Ignition are doing is legal is somewhat ambiguous. After several attempts at this, however, I've realized I don't actually know how ACR and Ignition legally operate while allowing US players.

It's also not particularly comforting to have personally experienced some questionable actions with both sites: seeing credit card deposits show up on statements as totally bogus purchases, or for ACR customer service reps to instruct you to tell your bank that the deposits you request are for "sports equipment."

So what's the real story? Any legal scholars out there who can fill us in, or point me to the actual, well-defined reasons ACR and Ignition can still operate?
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:24 PM   #7
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Legalize online poker and everyone wins. US Government at its finest right now.
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