Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-03-2015, 09:13 PM   #201
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

There must be something in the works with the compact, because there is already talk of breaking ground of the new hotel early next year and moving the poker room to the old bus depot.

Those are old rumors but I just heard new talk of it today.
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2015, 07:07 AM   #202
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

It was always the most likely scenario that the compact would be renegotiated.

As regards the player-banked games legal issue, whether or not the games are "poker" is not the issue. The current FL law defines "authorized games" as all nonbanked poker games. There is no definition of "nonbanked" in the law, but there is a definition of "banking game", which defines them as house-banked games.

However, the term "banking game" is not equivalent to the term "nonbanked" and is only used later in the statutes in a provision that says banking games are prohibited:

Quote:
No person licensed to operate a cardroom may conduct any banking game or any game not specifically authorized by this section.
So the legal question is what games are "specifically authorized". That lies in the definition of "authorized games":

Quote:
“Authorized game” means a game or series of games of poker or dominoes which are played in a nonbanking manner.
And we get back to the fact that "nonbanking" is not defined, which means that it falls to the common usage definition of the word. In this case imo, therefore, it would mean that any banked game, whether house-banked or player-banked, is not an authorized game under state law.

IMO, the state regulators made a definite legal error authorizing player-banked games in the first place, and the Seminoles have a perfectly valid legal claim against the state for compact violations.

Under the terms of the compact, in the case of such compact violations, the tribe is required to put their compact payments into an escrow account for up to a year while the state has the opportunity to correct the violations, after which the payments to the state resume if the violations are corrected. If the state doesn't correct the violations, then the tribe gets to keep the money and continue all the gaming without making any further payments to the state.

It doesn't really matter whether or not a new compact is negotiated. To continue to receive gaming revenue-sharing payments from the tribe, even if a new compact is not renegotiated and the authorized tribal gaming gets reduced to just slot machines, the state has to correct their error and stop the player-banked poker games at the pari-mutuels.

So this change in policy by the state regulators to forbid player-banked poker games is not really a sure sign that the compact renegotiations are progressing. It's just a sure sign that the state realizes it's legal mistake and doesn't want to forgo the $250M+ dollars per year it gets from the tribe. Of course, it could also tie in to the compact renegotiations, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they must be closing in on a final agreement.

Still, I doubt either the state or the tribe wants the current compact to fail. If the tribe were to prevail in court and get continued Class III gaming without payments to the state, then there is also no longer any incentive for the state to continue exclusivity to the tribe. The state would then have to expand gaming throughout the state to maintain the gaming revenues, and the tribe would lose their dominance in the Florida gaming market. I don't think either party wants that scenario.

Last edited by PokerXanadu; 12-04-2015 at 07:22 AM.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 02:19 AM   #203
browser2920
Pooh-Bah
 
browser2920's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: in line behind 2919 other browsers
Posts: 4,245
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Gov Scott and Seminoles reach a deal. Now goes to state legislature.

http://www.tbo.com/news/florida/flor...deal-20151207/
browser2920 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 02:43 AM   #204
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

You beat me to it. lol

"For its part, the tribe gets to keep card games such as blackjack at their casinos across the state, including the Seminole Hard Rock casinos in Tampa and Hollywood, and to add table games such as roulette and craps."

So when will this go to vote and or be official and active?
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 05:08 AM   #205
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parisron View Post
You beat me to it. lol

"For its part, the tribe gets to keep card games such as blackjack at their casinos across the state, including the Seminole Hard Rock casinos in Tampa and Hollywood, and to add table games such as roulette and craps."

So when will this go to vote and or be official and active?
At this point they will probably just wait and bring it to a vote in the regular spring session of the legislature, which starts in January.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 05:27 AM   #206
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

This article has better details (most significantly that the deal is for 20 years, not just the seven mentioned in the TBO article):
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/poli...e48541885.html

And here is their link to a pdf of the actual compact:
http://www.miamiherald.com/latest-ne...ng_Compact.pdf

Last edited by PokerXanadu; 12-08-2015 at 05:32 AM.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 05:50 AM   #207
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Some significant provisions in the new compact in regards to poker:

Expanded hours at the pari-mutuels allowed.

De-coupling allowed.

Player-banked games (termed 'Designated Player Games' in the compact) allowed, with some restrictions.
"Banking or Banked-Card Games" now defined more clearly as house-banked games.

Designated Player Games is defined as:
"games consisting of at least three cards in which players compare their cards only to those cards of the player in the dealer position, who also plays winners and collects from losers." It also must use standard poker hand-ranking, and the max wager is $25.

If Internet gaming involving wagering (e.g. poker) is authorized in the state, then the Guaranteed Minimum Payments cease (which exist for just the first 7 years of the new compact) but the Revenue Sharing payments continue. However, this doesn't apply if the tribe offers Internet gaming. This means that there is almost no chance for Internet poker to be authorized in Florida until at least 2024 unless the tribe implements it as well. (And the same for DFS.) The compact also affirmatively states that Internet gaming is not currently authorized by Florida law.

Last edited by PokerXanadu; 12-27-2015 at 05:52 AM.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 06:52 AM   #208
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Here are all the required restrictions for Designated Player Games under the new compact:

The max wagers is $25.
The Designated Player occupies a player position.
Each player is offered, in a clockwise rotation, the opportunity to be the next Designated Player after each hand.
The Designated Player must play a regular player position for at least two hands after being the Designated Player for 30 consecutive hands.
Designated Players are not required to pay more than 10x the minimum posted bet.
Parimutuels that offer Slot Machines or Video Race Terminals are not allowed to offer Designated Player Games.
Designated Player Game tables must be no more than 25% of the authorized poker tables at the parimutuel.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 08:19 AM   #209
white_lytning
grinder
 
white_lytning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miami
Posts: 532
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Designated Player games are retarded. What is a "standard poker hand ranking" and if they are going to allow it why have a $25 max wager?

It appears whoever got that part included is still under the impression DP games are somehow related to poker games which is hilarious and really sad/annoying as a poker player. What do we have to do to get the PPA to write something distinguishing the two. Its not good for poker that these people keep trying to call DP games "poker" games.
white_lytning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 10:08 AM   #210
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
Designated Player games are retarded. What is a "standard poker hand ranking" and if they are going to allow it why have a $25 max wager?

It appears whoever got that part included is still under the impression DP games are somehow related to poker games which is hilarious and really sad/annoying as a poker player. What do we have to do to get the PPA to write something distinguishing the two. Its not good for poker that these people keep trying to call DP games "poker" games.
The standard hand rankings are defined in the compact as those that are defined in Hoyles Modern Encyclopedia of Card Games, 1974 edition.

Why do you think the DP games are bad for poker, especially as they are defined under this compact? Do you think they are taking players and money away from the Holdem games? Is that bad for poker, or simply bad for Holdem sharks? The DP players are poker players too - if that is their poker game of choice, why should they be shunned by the poker community?
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 11:03 AM   #211
browser2920
Pooh-Bah
 
browser2920's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: in line behind 2919 other browsers
Posts: 4,245
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

I wonder if the way those restrictions on DP games is worded is to stop 3 card poker. In 3 card poker, a straight beats a flush, so you could say that's not using standard poker hand rankings. Also, the pair plus bet (which attracts a lot of the players because of the chance for a 20x-40x bet score) seems to be eliminated if the DP is not required to pay more than 10x the minimum posted bet.

and if a DP has to play a regular player position for two hands after being the DP for 30 hands, then who is the DP for those 2 hands? Will the banking company have to provide two people to each table instead of one?
browser2920 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2015, 07:39 PM   #212
white_lytning
grinder
 
white_lytning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miami
Posts: 532
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
The standard hand rankings are defined in the compact as those that are defined in Hoyles Modern Encyclopedia of Card Games, 1974 edition.

Why do you think the DP games are bad for poker, especially as they are defined under this compact? Do you think they are taking players and money away from the Holdem games? Is that bad for poker, or simply bad for Holdem sharks? The DP players are poker players too - if that is their poker game of choice, why should they be shunned by the poker community?
Right. But that book includes a lot of non 'poker" games. 3 Card Poker is in that book for example. Does that mean that the ranking of cards in the 3 Card Poker section of that book is a "poker ranking"? I don't think so but understand that an attorney wouldn't avoid making that argument.

I think DP games are bad for poker because they are casino table games that are being sold to regulators and politicians as "poker games." As someone that wants online poker to happen (although this compact makes it hard to see that happening anytime soon) I want to distance poker from any type of banked casino game because poker is a skill game not a casino game.

I think DP games could be good for the rooms, and I don't mind the DP games themselves I just don't like that they are sold as poker games. Poker has a hard enough time as it is distinguishing it from other forms of gambling. I don't want people including real casino games in the family of poker games and think other poker players would feel the same?
white_lytning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2015, 02:43 AM   #213
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Florida gaming deal faces uncertain odds in Legislature

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...lature/2257009
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2015, 06:15 PM   #214
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Seminole compact raises prospect of gambling war

Quote:
While Governor Rick Scott touts his gambling deal as a win for the state and the Seminoles salute him, other players in the world of high-stakes gaming are less than thrilled.

The governor told reporters on Tuesday that the agreement is "a good transaction for the taxpayers of the state,” and Seminole Tribe of Florida chairman released a rare statement praising Scott "for his leadership in working with members of the Senate and the House to finalize this important Compact for our 4,000 Seminole Tribal members and for all Floridians,” adding that the compact “not only saves 3,500 jobs, but it will also allow us to work with the state creating 15,000 additional jobs.”

But the legislative fate of the wide-ranging compact is still far from clear, and some stakeholders see the compact signed by the governor as a starting point for the real negotiations. The governor himself told reporters that he's just "the first step in the process," and that the Legislature "will make a decision if they even want to look at it, if they want to review it. It’s completely up to them."...
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2015, 07:25 PM   #215
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

And more Florida gambling-politics-as-usual:

Is Rick Scott already getting cold feet on Seminole blackjack deal?

Quote:
Gov. Rick Scott has told reporters he’ll “respect the decision” of the Legislature about the deal he struck with the Seminole Tribe of Florida renewing exclusive rights to offer blackjack at its casinos in return for $3 billion over seven years.

Scott briefly answered questions after this week’s Cabinet meeting in the Capitol on Tuesday morning.

He and others spent months going back and forth on the terms, heralding the details Monday night with a statement that the new agreement is the “largest revenue share guarantee in history.”

Less than 24 hours later, however, he largely deferred to lawmakers.

“I’m just the first part of the process,” Scott said. “Now it goes to the Legislature. I’ll respect the decision of President (Andy) Gardiner and Speaker (Steve) Crisafulli...
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2015, 03:39 AM   #216
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

State senator files bill to create gaming commission

http://www.tbo.com/news/politics/sta...sion-20151222/

Good Idea.
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2016, 06:07 PM   #217
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Seminole gambling pact in Florida looks like a long shot

Quote:
Sometimes hackneyed gambling terms are just too perfect to resist. Like “long shot,” “sucker bet,” “snake eyes.” Any of which nicely describe the chances of the Florida Legislature approving the governor’s $3 billion gaming deal with the Seminole Tribe.

Too many disparate interests with too many lobbyists and too much money make the proposed compact anything but a sure thing.
I don't know why the state keeps spending money on compact negotiations and trying to get it approved through the legislature. They should just buy some PowerBall tickets instead. Better odds.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2016, 09:25 AM   #218
flabucki09
old hand
 
flabucki09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Sunny Orlando
Posts: 1,300
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Seminole gambling pact in Florida looks like a long shot



I don't know why the state keeps spending money on compact negotiations and trying to get it approved through the legislature. They should just buy some PowerBall tickets instead. Better odds.

Now that is funny
flabucki09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2016, 10:42 PM   #219
white_lytning
grinder
 
white_lytning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miami
Posts: 532
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Seminole gambling pact in Florida looks like a long shot

I don't know why the state keeps spending money on compact negotiations and trying to get it approved through the legislature. They should just buy some PowerBall tickets instead. Better odds.
It is pretty funny at this point but I would still bet that it does get done. Its too much money to leave hanging and the PMs are going to come around.

No commission but decoupling and a ratified compact before the 17 session.
white_lytning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2016, 03:30 AM   #220
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

STATE FILES GAMBLING COMPLAINTS AGAINST RACETRACKS ACROSS FLORIDA

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/199769-state
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2016, 07:10 AM   #221
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,364
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parisron View Post
STATE FILES GAMBLING COMPLAINTS AGAINST RACETRACKS ACROSS FLORIDA

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/199769-state
Interesting. I would assume that the DPMW decided to go forward with this because of:

Judge gives green light to Seminole Tribe gambling lawsuit


Quote:
The Seminole Tribe's lawsuit against Florida over failed negotiations on a gambling deal is moving forward after a federal judge refused to toss the case.
In a five-page order last week, U.S. District Judge Robert L. Hinkle rejected a request from Attorney General Pam Bondi's office to dismiss the case.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2016, 08:29 AM   #222
white_lytning
grinder
 
white_lytning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miami
Posts: 532
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

"Such games are usually a version of poker in which players take on each other, rather than playing against the house." From the Florida Politics Article.

Cutting edge reporting here...

This is why I have been so against these things PX. Its so hard to get people outside of gambling to understand how poker works and why its different from table games that confusing the issue with these kinds of games just makes the issue too complicated.

Its about time this happened and it will be interesting to see what happens from here. I think there is a clear link between the compact negotiations and the timing of this.

There is a senate reg affairs committee meeting today at 9am that I'm guessing also played a role here. The meeting should be particularly interesting now.

At the meeting last week a few of the senators kept bringing up the point that the pari-mutuels weren't getting anything out of the compact. Prohibiting these games now gives them something to gain from the deal.

It will also be interesting to see if any of the ones named stop offering the games. I'm guessing they keep playing.
white_lytning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2016, 12:09 PM   #223
fruitpunchfourloko
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 42
Talking Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
"It will also be interesting to see if any of the ones named stop offering the games. I'm guessing they keep playing.
Why would they keep running "designated player games" if they face the possibility of losing their operating permits?

They will fold faster than a nit holding 22 on a akq board........
fruitpunchfourloko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2016, 12:49 PM   #224
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by white_lytning View Post
"Such games are usually a version of poker in which players take on each other, rather than playing against the house." From the Florida Politics Article.

Cutting edge reporting here...

This is why I have been so against these things PX. Its so hard to get people outside of gambling to understand how poker works and why its different from table games that confusing the issue with these kinds of games just makes the issue too complicated.

Its about time this happened and it will be interesting to see what happens from here. I think there is a clear link between the compact negotiations and the timing of this.

There is a senate reg affairs committee meeting today at 9am that I'm guessing also played a role here. The meeting should be particularly interesting now.

At the meeting last week a few of the senators kept bringing up the point that the pari-mutuels weren't getting anything out of the compact. Prohibiting these games now gives them something to gain from the deal.

It will also be interesting to see if any of the ones named stop offering the games. I'm guessing they keep playing.
Looking at Tampa Bay Downs (Silks) on Bravo, they currently have One 3 card table going and One Ultimate Texas Holdem going.
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2016, 11:01 PM   #225
parisron
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
parisron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: CheapLasVegasTrip.com
Posts: 7,893
Re: Florida gambling & poker: laws, regulations and politics.

Florida moves to legalize fantasy sports but status of some poker games gets murky

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/poli...e56926858.html

It looks like they going to legalize Fantasy Sports in Florida and write it into the new compact.
parisron is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online