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Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 03-04-2013, 05:44 PM   #1
Gags30
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AGA Attempts to Block PS Entry to NJ

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Lets start the derail of this thread. Stars is banned from Nevada and still has an uphill battle in NJ. Borgata is owned by Boyd/MGM though a subsidiary and both of them have a partnership with Bwin, the company that started this discussion in the first place.

Caesars has 25k rooms in Vegas alone, WSOP, one of(if not the) largest rewards memberships in the world, and is easily the most prepared US gaming interest for the future IPoker market. Saying they will be anything other than the top provider in the US market is probably wrong. Saying that any other company will be able to be more creative is wishful thinking. The only thing that is going to hold Caesars back is their future bankruptcy, but even then creditors stand to gain a whole lot more by allowing Caesars to continue their expansion online.

My previous post was simply an example of what could happen wrt this issue in a highly segregated market like we will have in the near future. I highly doubt Caesars will ever do anything this stupid. They stand to make several times more off the IPoker market by funneling players to their casinos.
caesars def will have a big site, dont' get me wrong.

what makes you think stars has an 'uphill battle' who exactly are they battling? nj has already said they're welcoming stars with open arms and look forward to having such a great foreign company in the US
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:56 PM   #2
mag8500
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

Here we go.....


Nathan Vardi ‏@nathanvardi

The American Gaming Association has filed a brief opposing PokerStars' petition for casino authorization in New Jersey.
Retweeted by Kevin Mathers

The casino lobby says PokerStars "operated as a criminal enterprise" and can't demonstrate good "integrity, and honesty required by NJ law."
Retweeted by Kevin Mathers
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:59 PM   #3
Gags30
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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Here we go.....


Nathan Vardi ‏@nathanvardi

The American Gaming Association has filed a brief opposing PokerStars' petition for casino authorization in New Jersey.
Retweeted by Kevin Mathers

The casino lobby says PokerStars "operated as a criminal enterprise" and can't demonstrate good "integrity, and honesty required by NJ law."
Retweeted by Kevin Mathers
ya i mean, all pokerstars did was act with the utmost integrity and honesty, complied with the DOJ 100%, repaid all americans funds, then settled with the DOJ and plead no wrongdoing whatsoever



absurd that this even comes up...
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #4
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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ya i mean, all pokerstars did was act with the utmost integrity and honesty, complied with the DOJ 100%, repaid all americans funds, then settled with the DOJ and plead no wrongdoing whatsoever



absurd that this even comes up...
I don't think its absurd at all. I agree PS is a well run company and has done everything the DOJ has asked of them but did think the brick n mortar casino's in AC were just going to let PS roll into town and take over?!?!
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:19 PM   #5
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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I don't think its absurd at all. I agree PS is a well run company and has done everything the DOJ has asked of them but did think the brick n mortar casino's in AC were just going to let PS roll into town and take over?!?!
so because AC casinos are known as being greedy and shady we're supposed to expect this type of behavior and not criticize it?
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:27 PM   #6
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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so because AC casinos are known as being greedy and shady we're supposed to expect this type of behavior and not criticize it?

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. All casinos are greedy, just not AC's. What is there to criticize? Why wouldn't you expect a casino or any business for that matter to just let a competitor come in and take over? If I was a shareholder in BYD or CZR I would be mad as all hell if they didn't try to put a stop to this. I'm not saying its going to work but its obviously expected.
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:35 PM   #7
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. All casinos are greedy, just not AC's. What is there to criticize? Why wouldn't you expect a casino or any business for that matter to just let a competitor come in and take over? If I was a shareholder in BYD or CZR I would be mad as all hell if they didn't try to put a stop to this. I'm not saying its going to work but its obviously expected.
maybe i didn't make it clear...as an AC casino, instead of trying to find a loophole to not allow a competitor into the market, you should try to make a product that can actually compete with the competitor's. This is how an open market works. If the competitor (pokerstars) is shut out, then the AC casinos will most likely put out a ****ty product because their is no need to have a good one because there is no competition

as a consumer, i want several companies competing for the top spot...i don't want it handed to one company because another one is shut out due to a technicality
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:53 PM   #8
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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maybe i didn't make it clear...as an AC casino, instead of trying to find a loophole to not allow a competitor into the market, you should try to make a product that can actually compete with the competitor's. This is how an open market works. If the competitor (pokerstars) is shut out, then the AC casinos will most likely put out a ****ty product because their is no need to have a good one because there is no competition

as a consumer, i want several companies competing for the top spot...i don't want it handed to one company because another one is shut out due to a technicality
I hear your concerns regarding an open market and I believe there will be once all the sites get up and running. The problem is that PS had an unfair advantage (some people might argue this point) since they were operating in the "grey" area of the law for all those years. Pokerstars has no born right to the NJ online poker market. That is up to the state of NJ, not even the DOJ will be able to come in and save the day (unless there are back office dealings). My guess is that the won't be up and running when the first cards are dealt but might be able to come in a couple of years down the line once all the NJ casino's feel like they have a strong enough brand to compete against them.
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:17 PM   #9
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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I hear your concerns regarding an open market and I believe there will be once all the sites get up and running. The problem is that PS had an unfair advantage (some people might argue this point) since they were operating in the "grey" area of the law for all those years. Pokerstars has no born right to the NJ online poker market. That is up to the state of NJ, not even the DOJ will be able to come in and save the day (unless there are back office dealings). My guess is that the won't be up and running when the first cards are dealt but might be able to come in a couple of years down the line once all the NJ casino's feel like they have a strong enough brand to compete against them.
lol, how do they have an unfair advantage? borgata has partnereed with party, who has been around for quite some time...caesars is partnering with 888...how ist hat not the same advantage that stars has?
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:33 PM   #10
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

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caesars def will have a big site, dont' get me wrong.

what makes you think stars has an 'uphill battle' who exactly are they battling? nj has already said they're welcoming stars with open arms and look forward to having such a great foreign company in the US
First time in my life I have considered moving to the Garden state
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:36 PM   #11
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

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caesars def will have a big site, dont' get me wrong.

what makes you think stars has an 'uphill battle' who exactly are they battling? nj has already said they're welcoming stars with open arms and look forward to having such a great foreign company in the US
You have a source on this? Just today the AGA filed a brief saying PS shouldn't be allowed to purchase the Atlantic Club. The AGA represents Caesars(largest owner of casinos in AC) and the Borgata. That's half of AC. The other half is owned by Trump/Tropicana and even smaller companies. They most likely oppose PS buying the Atlantic Club just as much as the AGA does.

Pokerstars has no friends in the world right now. Not only that, they have people trying to **** on them every step of the way. As poker players we have a certain view of pokerstars. Sadly, US business interests don't feel the same, and the have to power to at the very least slow PS down.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:17 PM   #12
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

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You have a source on this? Just today the AGA filed a brief saying PS shouldn't be allowed to purchase the Atlantic Club. The AGA represents Caesars(largest owner of casinos in AC) and the Borgata. That's half of AC. The other half is owned by Trump/Tropicana and even smaller companies. They most likely oppose PS buying the Atlantic Club just as much as the AGA does.

Pokerstars has no friends in the world right now. Not only that, they have people trying to **** on them every step of the way. As poker players we have a certain view of pokerstars. Sadly, US business interests don't feel the same, and the have to power to at the very least slow PS down.
ya i saw the thing about the AGA right after i posted in this thread earlier...

anyway, here is one quote that i saw about welcoming pokerstars:

http://www.njsendems.com/release.asp?rid=4743
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #13
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Lesniak is knee deep in this issue. He just wants every online gaming company to relocate to NJ, so that they are the(a) central hub.

I still think that PS has a decent chance, but US gaming interests are going to make them sweat it out. Even if everything goes right for PS, they could still be late to the party if NJ follows their own timeline.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:47 PM   #14
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Neither of which have been in the US since 2006. Therefore ps has a 5 year advantage.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:08 PM   #15
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maybe i didn't make it clear...as an AC casino, instead of trying to find a loophole to not allow a competitor into the market, you should try to make a product that can actually compete with the competitor's. This is how an open market works. If the competitor (pokerstars) is shut out, then the AC casinos will most likely put out a ****ty product because their is no need to have a good one because there is no competition

as a consumer, i want several companies competing for the top spot...i don't want it handed to one company because another one is shut out due to a technicality
You are absolutely right, from a consumer's perspective. But a businesses' sole purpose is to make money. I think everyone pretty much saw at least a challenge coming.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:48 PM   #16
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

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You have a source on this? Just today the AGA filed a brief saying PS shouldn't be allowed to purchase the Atlantic Club. The AGA represents Caesars(largest owner of casinos in AC) and the Borgata. That's half of AC. The other half is owned by Trump/Tropicana and even smaller companies. They most likely oppose PS buying the Atlantic Club just as much as the AGA does.

Pokerstars has no friends in the USA right now. Not only that, they have people trying to **** on them every step of the way. As poker players we have a certain view of pokerstars. Sadly, US business interests don't feel the same, and the have to power to at the very least slow PS down.
FYP. I think the rest of the world would give PS a big hug if they could.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:49 PM   #17
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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You are absolutely right, from a consumer's perspective. But a businesses' sole purpose is to make money. I think everyone pretty much saw at least a challenge coming.
Watch the same push back against Borgata and their partnering with MGM. Because MGM's owner does have a checkered past.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:10 PM   #18
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Yeah, Lesniak is open to PokerStars' entry. That can't be said about other politicians/regulators/interest groups. I don't know if they really are going through huge trouble to get in, but I guess if it was gonna be easy - they would already own the casino.

There's probably lots of resistance we don't know about - but that being said I think it's pretty likely that PokerStars ends up sorting though it and buying the Atlantic club and setting up a Pokerstars.nj site.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:29 PM   #19
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

The "unfair advantage" argument in regards to any industry is silly. It's basically somebody saying "my company can't provide a product or service as good as their company, so we want the government to step in and stop them." It's anti-capitalist in nature, and only really hurts consumers while benefiting corporations that won't do a good job, but have political connections.

And the funny thing is it's generally the "capitalism doesn't work" crowd that advocates for policies that are anti-capitalist, and then later complain when the corporations they gave favors to are exploiting people. Well no crap, because it was your exploitative policies that banned the decent corporations from acting in the market. Don't create corporatist policies and then blame capitalism when they don't work.

And as for the argument that PokerStars has no right to be in NJ, and it's up to the state to decide. Well I suppose that's true, that ultimately the state will decide. But why shouldn't they have the right to be here? Aren't we supposed to have free markets? Of course they have the right to do business here, even if most people like to think that for some reason we get to decide who can and can't do business.

TL;DR "Unfair advantage is BS." There's no such thing as an "unfair" advantage, only advantages and disadvantages.

/End Rant.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:30 PM   #20
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

Oops, just realize that came off wrong.

I'm not attempting to blame anyone for advocating that PokerStars shouldn't be allowed in NJ. Just had to put in my little pro-capitalist rant.

Proceed with better things to talk about.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:03 AM   #21
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

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FYP. I think the rest of the world would give PS a big hug if they could.
Agree

That was more for dramatic effect.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:30 AM   #22
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

How long until someone with a NJ address can sign up and play on the existing pokerstars site with the non-Americans?
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:56 AM   #23
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Also have to keep in mind if stars is denied, the sale falls through and 2k people lose their jobs
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:01 AM   #24
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Re: NJ online poker legislation (passed)

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Watch the same push back against Borgata and their partnering with MGM. Because MGM's owner does have a checkered past.
The problem with MGM was their ties to Pansy Ho and her having influence in their joint venture in Macau. MGM is trying to retain their stake in Borgata now that Pansy has a lower stake in the Macau property and no influence. Most likely, they will be able to keep their property.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:08 AM   #25
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Re: Segregation of players based on skill - US Online Poker

Only for a short time, though. My guess is someone would pick it up and reopen it with the same expectations that Stars has. There are plenty of contenders that could really exploit that license...Bwin, 888, Amaya, Shuffle master, IGT, Zynga

There isn't going to be enough licenses for all of those companies to get in on the action. One could easily take a leap. Usually gaming technology providers don't buy casinos, but we are moving to a new world where software providers rule.
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