A Question Regarding Changing Gears In Live Play - Page 3 - Medium Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

663366 · 05-15-2012, 07:00 PM

Abhorson 2 points of advice for you:

1) I dont know which 5/10 live game you play in but I make small adjustments against players and their mental state and even how tired they are all the time, regardless of whether they have been playing hands or taking beats. and of course if he folded every hand for hours then started raising buttons i would look at whether he's capable of changing gears, for eg. if he's a smart online player I would make that assumption, while if he's a 55yo guy with a beard and been passive postflop then I would assume he just picked up a hand. I know plenty of 5/10 players who only play 5/10 because 10/20 doesnt run very often and they also think far beyond their own 2 cards... I think of what my opponent thinks of my hand etc for eg. I wonder if you really even play in or beat 5/10 live.. there are droolers of course but some of us can play a lot higher but dont because they dont run and we do play msnl online as well.

2) when someone like sauce123 speaks, we should be glad that he posted at all because someone of his stature online rarely makes strategy posts... durrrr doesn't, jman doesn't, elky doesnt, and mercier doesnt. now if you dont know who those guys are... well i've just mentioned the 2 sickest cash game players in the world and the 2 sickest tournament players. sauce123 is almost in that category. these guys dont give away their secrets everyday so personally im grateful if sauce123 makes a post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhorson

[On the 150K, I meant that someone who makes that at a regular job and therefore thinks they are a high roller/hotshot - which is more of the sort of people I play against personally. Not someone who makes that at poker.]

But my overall point was that, in my experience, I don't see most 5/10 live players adjusting to minor changes. I would actually say that 2/5 players are more likely to adjust than 5/10 players. I think at 5/10 the games are populated with more people for whom 5 buy-ins is less of a hit than 5 buy-ins to an average 2/5 player, due to the money those people make away from the poker table.

Therefore they seem to play more based on their hands and their personality. They will adjust if someone is WAY off the reservation as far as "normal" (e.g., going from playing 3 hands an orbit to playing 6), but I haven't seen them do it as a result of the magnitude of changes sauce (still don't know who that is if anyone wants to enlighten me) suggested.

I think what I missed what that he (she?) was saying that the value is exactly that (going from 40% to 60% in his example was beneficial not because of the change that it would cause in your opponent but in the added value it would be to you) vs. I thought we were trying to come up with something to slow down the other player. Not sure why I basically missed/misread his point, but I did.

Both your and his point however obviously make sense when you're looking at it from that side.

My point was frankly off-argument if you think about it. (But as an aside I'll still take the position that changing your play in order to cause an average 5/10 player to do something different is often an exercise in futility.)

Marshall28 · 05-16-2012, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhorson

Going back and re-reading his post, I guess I may have somewhat missed his point that you remade in your first paragraph above. Fair enough.

Also (and this is not directed to you - just in general), it doesn't matter if he's one of the 10 most respected players alive or not. That doesn't mean I, or anyone else, can't disagree with him. I have no idea who he is, not being a person who spends 16 or 18 hours a day playing or reading 4 or thinking about poker. But I'll take your word for it. And disagreeing with players who know more than I do and having that argument is what makes me, for one, better. If someone can convince me I'm wrong, so be it. (It wouldn't be the first time.) If he can't, I'll stand by my opinion, and maybe go down in flames. Also wouldn't be the first time. Makes life fun.

Honestly, you and I are quite similar on that front. I do disagree with a lot of the posts he makes and find myself befuddled with his responses trying to wrap my head around understanding them.

At the same time, I also 4 tabled him ~2500 hands HU and got murdered. It seemed like you assumed he was just another dude posting advice, I was just pointing out that you might want to take another second and consider what he's saying. I appreciate the vast majority of his responses because it's a privilege for us to even receive information from someone of that stature. It's not like you see Phil Ivey or Patrik Antonius coming around and posting advice in any of these threads, ever.

The Meist3r · 05-16-2012, 06:52 PM

I think this can be summed up with 3 words, lol sample-size. Like sauce pointed out, many hands can take up to 5 minutes, live. That's 60 hands in 5 hours. I played a session yesterday for 4 1/2 hrs and played over 3,500 hands (reminds me why i hate playing live).

You simply need to have a LOT more patience, and realize that the long run in live play is a very very very long time.

NYtoCALI · 05-17-2012, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

i mean look, 5 hours live is 100 hands. it isn't hard to be card dead or run hot for 100 hands. but 5 hours seems like a long time, and so many times people forget that they can't possibly have reads on anyone's play over short samples. so, you can exploit this tendency by loosening or tightening your requirements for certain spots to exploit your own short term history. for example, say you have played a 9 vpip for 5 hours, and you have two tight blinds to your left and are in the CO. now maybe i usually steal 40% here, but id go ahead and make it 60% in this case. something like that would be my gear change.

Thanks for the input Ben (Sauce). I have no clue why these people are attacking your post, but I actually found your post to be quite helpful & i appreciate the input.

- NYtoCALI

Petey 5thStreet · 05-23-2012, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhorson

They will adjust if someone is WAY off the reservation as far as "normal" (e.g., going from playing 3 hands an orbit to playing 6), but I haven't seen them do it as a result of the magnitude of changes sauce (still don't know who that is if anyone wants to enlighten me) suggested.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sauce123

sauce123 · 06-01-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhorson

You sound like an online player trying to apply those concepts to live play. They just don't work like that at these stakes. Changing from 40% steal to 60% will be noticed by approximately one person in 17,000 live. (Maybe 1 in 10,000 at 5/10.) It's meaningless.

As far as they are concerned, they have X-X and you raised from late position. Could be you do that 25% of the time, could be you've been doing it 50% of the time. Still doesn't change their hand and most of the time that's why they are or are not going to play this hand. Their attitude is "I make $150,000 a year and I'll be dammed if I'm going to let this little kid run over me..."

My point is NOT that you can't adjust during live play. Obviously, you can. But it's not by playing 15% VPIP instead of 9%.

If you're right (and maybe you are, I don't play much live poker), then the whole thread is misguided. If people don't adjust to each other at the table (your argument) then correct strategy should always just be whatever exploits their strategies, and should never change since their strategies don't change.

I disagree with you, and think people adjust too much based on short term perceptions of their opponents' strategies. I suggest taking advantage of that in a conservative way by changing your range for some action by a small % in the opposite way you think the opponent will overadjust.

LucidDream · 06-01-2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhorson

You sound like an online player trying to apply those concepts to live play. They just don't work like that at these stakes. Changing from 40% steal to 60% will be noticed by approximately one person in 17,000 live. (Maybe 1 in 10,000 at 5/10.) It's meaningless.

As far as they are concerned, they have X-X and you raised from late position. Could be you do that 25% of the time, could be you've been doing it 50% of the time. Still doesn't change their hand and most of the time that's why they are or are not going to play this hand. Their attitude is "I make $150,000 a year and I'll be dammed if I'm going to let this little kid run over me..."

My point is NOT that you can't adjust during live play. Obviously, you can. But it's not by playing 15% VPIP instead of 9%.

I dont think sauce is trying to say he wants to open more for the purpose of image...he is just saying if he has a nitty image because he's card dead it will allow him to steal more. That's true actually. Even fish notice when people are tight so a hand that someone would call with if you raised the last 4 hands in a row can easily become a fold when you ha ent raised in the last hour. I agree with what you are saying but only really if you are applying it to fish. There are some good thinking live regs out there.