***The OFFICIAL 2012 Stars Regulars Thread***

[makeit3bets]

Originally Posted by MatthewRyan

Fish money makes it way to the tables almost exclusivity via deposit and sit or tourny cashers taking their winnings to a table of their choice. The idea of a fish say playing .5/1 and running it up enough to play 10-20 is the v rare exception.

Reg money moving up AND being losers ofc happens, but if you look at the "regs moving up stakes" as group they will be net winners.

This is what I meant, in a strictly simple sense, money moves up. It may be in the hands of a shot taking reg that may or may not be a loser at the new stake much more often than a fish, but that money is still making its way up.

[krmont22]

Originally Posted by Clayton

Sounds like it's gonna eventually bankrupt them though, or force them to change their ways.

I don't know where everyone thinks 24 tablers are losing players. Most of the winning 24 tablers (there are a lot) are losing 10-15% which only means they have to play more hands every year.

Money almost certainly moves up. If it didn't 2/4+ would have died a long time ago.

In regards to the 4.5% rake this was going to benefit microstakes a little bit, but they increased the cap at 3 and 5 handed, so I was unconvinced it really did anything.

[krmont22]

Just thought I'd let you guys know Stars is planning on letting people play more than 24 tables now.

[lima]

Originally Posted by Pugliesea

If any of you are there and want to hang out, play some poker, get some girls! etc lmk!

You're a pimp?

[Bruut99]

Originally Posted by dcg3

As a player who plays 100nl and below these are my thoughs.

Stars needs to stop raking the **** out of the small and microstakes games on their site. Money in poker moves up and the midstakes games cannot be good if players cannot progress past micro stakes/small because of the rake, for example if a player starts at 10nl is a slight loser the rake will eat all his money and he will quit, if that player was able to win a little with less rake he will move up ect.

Imo that is how you make the games better, you look after the players at bottom not the top, I think that 10 20+ shuold be raked more to make up the loss, The amount that microstakes players pay in terms of bb/100 is huge and needs to be reduced

They have to rake 10/20+ at like 50bb/hand to make up for that loss. Stop asking for higher rake in mid-high stakes 'to make up for things'. Its not needed. Stars has enough money. Dont give them ideas. Scary to see a lot of selfish idiots asking for higher rake in the internet poker threads.

[lima]

Originally Posted by dcg3

As a player who plays 100nl and below these are my thoughs.

Stars needs to stop raking the **** out of the small and microstakes games on their site. Money in poker moves up and the midstakes games cannot be good if players cannot progress past micro stakes/small because of the rake, for example if a player starts at 10nl is a slight loser the rake will eat all his money and he will quit, if that player was able to win a little with less rake he will move up ect.

Imo that is how you make the games better, you look after the players at bottom not the top, I think that 10 20+ shuold be raked more to make up the loss, The amount that microstakes players pay in terms of bb/100 is huge and needs to be reduced

Nobody will move up from micros to midstakes because the rake gets smaller lol.

[ArrrInnn]

increase the rake pls, then i get more rakeback!

[cashy]

Originally Posted by MatthewRyan

Fish money makes it way to the tables almost exclusivity via deposit and sit or tourny cashers taking their winnings to a table of their choice. The idea of a fish say playing .5/1 and running it up enough to play 10-20 is the v rare exception.

Reg money moving up AND being losers ofc happens, but if you look at the "regs moving up stakes" as group they will be net winners.

Originally Posted by lima

Nobody will move up from micros to midstakes because the rake gets smaller lol.

do you really think midstakes are kept alive by a few rich recreational players?
the water isnt carried from one guy to .10/25 to 10/20 no but it does make its way up in slow steps.

recreational player deposits at nl25
x% of that money gets brought up to nl50(by regs raking shots or recreational players running it up)
at nl50 you have another recreational player bringing money in, y% of his money and y% of (x% of nl25) gets brought up to nl100
etc etc

x% and y% get higher the lower the rake is(a higher percentage of the orginal money is brought up if stars is taking less away) -> more money brought up at each stake -> more money reaching higher limits

overraked micros are the root of the problem

[fees]

matthewryan got it right, its unusual for fish to win lower and try and take it big. ms and hs games are fueled by people who have money from somewhere else; they are rich, they win live, they win at limit/plo/etc but lose at NL. The most likely case however is that they binked something in a tourny/sng and took it to cash.

[mrw8419]

As for where the money comes from for mid stakes fish I think a lot of you guys are discounting the recreational players who deposit a couple hundred $, play $10-$100 tournaments and hit 4-5 figure scores. I've always been convinced that this is where the majority of small/mid/high stakes recreational players come from, its a bunch easier for them to deposit a small amount of money, final table a donkament and then slowly bleed the money back out through cash games. Compared to them either depositing thousands of dollars, or running it up at micro/small stakes cash games.

Also you guys should be arguing for more transparency in regards to rake and rakeback. The overly complex fpp and vpp system is ridic for any casual player. Maybe instead of tweaking the current system for your guys needs, you should be asking to start from scratch with a system that doesn't require hours of math just to find out how many hands you need for some milestone bonus. Get a system in place that doesn't have the major benefits of being SNE, SN, platinum blahh blahh blahh with various levels and milestones, just gives a flatter rb structure across the board for all players.

[lima]

Originally Posted by cashy

do you really think midstakes are kept alive by a few rich recreational players?

Yes.

90% of the regs don't even play if the fish isn't at the table.

If the regs are keeping the game alive, who's money are they winning? By that logic, most of them would be breakeven or losing longterm because of the rake. The math is very simple. Assuming all regs are winning players (including rakeback obv), the money they won altogether didn't come from other regs.

It's pretty simple: fish put money into the industry and regs take it out.

[Clayton]

Originally Posted by krmont22

Most of the winning 24 tablers (there are a lot) are losing 10-15% which only means they have to play more hands every year.

lol whoops. last time you said this I thought you meant they had to raise their vpip 20%. my bad.

[cashy]

Originally Posted by lima

Yes.

90% of the regs don't even play if the fish isn't at the table.

If the regs are keeping the game alive, who's money are they winning? By that logic, most of them would be breakeven or losing longterm because of the rake. The math is very simple. Assuming all regs are winning players (including rakeback obv), the money they won altogether didn't come from other regs.

It's pretty simple: fish put money into the industry and regs take it out.

you didnt address the orginal point at all

it is obvious that deposits keep the games running but all the micro fish are even more important than the few rich ones to keep midstakes+ alive.

a big reason why games got so much harder is that a lot less money comes up from the lowish stakes.

it is a vicious circle atm:
micros/lowstakes got tougher and due to the ridiculous amount of rake that has to be paid very few are able to win and no money gets up.
given that basically no money comes up midstakes get tougher and tougher as well and players move down because of it making the micros/lowerstakes even tougher again.

the only way to break trough this is a significant rake reducement at the beginning of the chain, the micros

[Bruut99]

Don't think anyone here is against reducing rake.

[Bruut99]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=506

Lol. Here they come, 40 tablers.