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| Medium Stakes PL/NL Discussions about medium stakes pot-limit and no-limit hold'em (2-4 to 5-10) |
08-05-2012, 12:39 PM
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#16
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newbie
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 35
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Re: NL600 turn decision
I think you played it fine. Good spot to pic him off, unfortunately it doesn't always work out perfectly.
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08-05-2012, 04:07 PM
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#17
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: @shootaaa
Posts: 4,139
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Re: NL600 turn decision
To balance this with your game at all, you should be calling on the turn. You also have a lot of equity against villain's range, especially if he won't be turning hands like J  J  into a bluff on a river diamond.
Raising on the turn doesn't represent that many hands since you're telling a story that goes something like "I have a great flush here, but not one that used to be a draw that I wanted to raise you with on the flop. I'm also not being deceptive or balancing with my other weak made hands with my hand if I do I have a flush." It's certainly possible, just less likely seeming that you'd want to play a flush or any part of your range this way without some history of being caught like you have been on this turn OR without knowing that villain will think about the spot in this way and procede with a wider than 'normal' range based off the understanding that your line doesn't make much sense for a flush.
To call the turn doesn't mean you necessarily bluff jam the river. Calling the turn just means that you believe you are doing well enough against villain's range considering pot odds, some implied odds, how well he plays the river (diamond and non-diamond), and the potential success of the future river jam on certain river cards. The river is another independent decision. The turn call can factor in future possibilities of all board permutations for a river decision and that might make some borderline situations sway from a call or a fold or raise. Calling here is correct here almost regardless of villain's river play.
Call > Raise. Folding seems ridiculously tight against almost any type of range we could throw out for a reasonably aggressive and experienced player to bet the turn.
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08-05-2012, 10:06 PM
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#18
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journeyman
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 322
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Re: NL600 turn decision
So many of the FDs that you are trying to rep here would have just raised the flop. So would your sets which is the only other hand you are repping by raising the turn. His turn barrelling frequencies are very low which weights his turn bet way more towards value then bluff so you can't ever really expect him to fold. As shoota mentioned, folding with the pure equity you have vs his value range is just too tight, you have diamond, straight and set outs and you MAY be good vs his Ad or Kd high hands.
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08-07-2012, 07:28 AM
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#19
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adept
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 934
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by shootaa
To balance this with your game at all, you should be calling on the turn. You also have a lot of equity against villain's range, especially if he won't be turning hands like J  J  into a bluff on a river diamond.
Raising on the turn doesn't represent that many hands since you're telling a story that goes something like "I have a great flush here, but not one that used to be a draw that I wanted to raise you with on the flop. I'm also not being deceptive or balancing with my other weak made hands with my hand if I do I have a flush." It's certainly possible, just less likely seeming that you'd want to play a flush or any part of your range this way without some history of being caught like you have been on this turn OR without knowing that villain will think about the spot in this way and procede with a wider than 'normal' range based off the understanding that your line doesn't make much sense for a flush.
To call the turn doesn't mean you necessarily bluff jam the river. Calling the turn just means that you believe you are doing well enough against villain's range considering pot odds, some implied odds, how well he plays the river (diamond and non-diamond), and the potential success of the future river jam on certain river cards. The river is another independent decision. The turn call can factor in future possibilities of all board permutations for a river decision and that might make some borderline situations sway from a call or a fold or raise. Calling here is correct here almost regardless of villain's river play.
Call > Raise. Folding seems ridiculously tight against almost any type of range we could throw out for a reasonably aggressive and experienced player to bet the turn.
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great post and I belive I have found my (nittish) leak as I did assume folding > raising> calling
for excercise I was playing little bit with pokerstove and I came to this range... is it too wide ?
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
6,820 games 0.001 secs 6,820,000 games/sec
Board: Td 4h 2d 6d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.416% 38.11% 00.31% 2599 21.00 { 5c5d }
Hand 1: 61.584% 61.28% 00.31% 4179 21.00 { JJ+, TcTh, TcTs, TdTh, ThTs, 99, 6c6h, 6c6s, 6h6s, 5h5s, 4c4d, 4c4s, 4d4s, 33, 2c2h, 2c2s, 2h2s, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AcTc, AhTh, AsTs, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad5d, KdQd, KdJd, KcTc, KhTh, KsTs, QdJd, QcTc, QhTh, QsTs, JcTc, JhTh, JsTs, Jd9d, Tc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, 9d8d, 9d7d, 8d7d, 7d6d, 7d5d, 5c4c, 5d4d, 5s4s, 53s, AdKc, AdKh, AdKs, AhKd, AsKd, AcQd, AcQh, AdQc, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AsQd, ATo, Ad9c, Ad9h, Ad9s, As9h, Ad8c, Ad8h, Ad8s, KcQd, KdQc, KdQh, KdQs, KhQd, KsQd, KsQh, KcJd, KdJc, KdJh, KdJs, KhJd, KsJd, KcTh, KcTs, KdTc, KdTh, KdTs, KhTc, KhTs, KsTc, KsTh, QcJd, QdJc, QdJh, QdJs, QhJc, QhJd, QsJd, JcTh, JcTs, JdTc, JdTh, JdTs, JhTc, JhTs, JsTc, JsTh, Tc9d, Tc9h, Tc9s, Th9c, Th9d, Th9s, Ts9c, Ts9d, Ts9h }
basicly all sets,overpairs, toprairs, some of the pair+fd, flushes, nut flushdraws, Khigh flushdraws , Qhigh flushdraws, pair +gs, straights etc..
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08-07-2012, 01:22 PM
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#20
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: @shootaaa
Posts: 4,139
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by railgun
great post and I belive I have found my (nittish) leak as I did assume folding > raising> calling
for excercise I was playing little bit with pokerstove and I came to this range... is it too wide ?
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
6,820 games 0.001 secs 6,820,000 games/sec
Board: Td 4h 2d 6d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.416% 38.11% 00.31% 2599 21.00 { 5c5d }
Hand 1: 61.584% 61.28% 00.31% 4179 21.00 { JJ+, TcTh, TcTs, TdTh, ThTs, 99, 6c6h, 6c6s, 6h6s, 5h5s, 4c4d, 4c4s, 4d4s, 33, 2c2h, 2c2s, 2h2s, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AcTc, AhTh, AsTs, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad5d, KdQd, KdJd, KcTc, KhTh, KsTs, QdJd, QcTc, QhTh, QsTs, JcTc, JhTh, JsTs, Jd9d, Tc9c, Th9h, Ts9s, 9d8d, 9d7d, 8d7d, 7d6d, 7d5d, 5c4c, 5d4d, 5s4s, 53s, AdKc, AdKh, AdKs, AhKd, AsKd, AcQd, AcQh, AdQc, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AsQd, ATo, Ad9c, Ad9h, Ad9s, As9h, Ad8c, Ad8h, Ad8s, KcQd, KdQc, KdQh, KdQs, KhQd, KsQd, KsQh, KcJd, KdJc, KdJh, KdJs, KhJd, KsJd, KcTh, KcTs, KdTc, KdTh, KdTs, KhTc, KhTs, KsTc, KsTh, QcJd, QdJc, QdJh, QdJs, QhJc, QhJd, QsJd, JcTh, JcTs, JdTc, JdTh, JdTs, JhTc, JhTs, JsTc, JsTh, Tc9d, Tc9h, Tc9s, Th9c, Th9d, Th9s, Ts9c, Ts9d, Ts9h }
basicly all sets,overpairs, toprairs, some of the pair+fd, flushes, nut flushdraws, Khigh flushdraws , Qhigh flushdraws, pair +gs, straights etc..
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Looks good to me! You probably get a little wiggle room with implied odds as well, not much, but a little.
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08-07-2012, 02:20 PM
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#21
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centurion
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 105
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Re: NL600 turn decision
you identified his leak as not betting enough turns then he bet. bluff raise has to be a bad option
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08-09-2012, 10:45 AM
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#22
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 13,627
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Re: NL600 turn decision
calling flop is beyond terrible. you should never be calling with a worse pair than Tx.
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08-09-2012, 11:53 AM
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#23
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old hand
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,339
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imrahil
calling flop is beyond terrible. you should never be calling with a worse pair than Tx.
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Why is calling 77-99 v a 72 cbet and slightly loose villain terrible?
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08-09-2012, 01:04 PM
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#24
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 13,627
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Re: NL600 turn decision
You will never end up winning the pot.
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08-09-2012, 01:46 PM
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#25
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adept
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,074
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Re: NL600 turn decision
having here a trunraisingrange seems technically pretty bad, actually.
Depending on the villain, I either fold OTT or call with potential jam-plans for the river.
But I would never even consider to ever raise there any hand from my range, OTT.
the preflopcall is depending on the ppl in the blinds close.
When there is no fish in the blinds and good regs, I rather fold or 3b/5bthe smalles PPs vs. competent regs in CovsBTN.
Flop is also superclose and I think it is more of a fold w a weak low-EQ (if behind) Bluffcatcher...
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08-09-2012, 07:46 PM
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#26
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: @shootaaa
Posts: 4,139
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imrahil
You will never end up winning the pot.
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Sounds like you should call more rivers and/or fold more turns
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08-09-2012, 09:12 PM
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#27
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newbie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Is there any merit to raising the flop here? If so and we get called, what cards are we giving up on?
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08-09-2012, 09:50 PM
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#28
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 13,627
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by shootaa
Sounds like you should call more rivers and/or fold more turns
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I have done the math.
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08-10-2012, 05:56 AM
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#29
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Trying not to bluff hamsters
Posts: 3,593
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imrahil
you should never be calling with a worse pair than Tx.
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I don't get it. Aren't you being destroyed by cbets if you fold all pairs under the T? I can just about understand folding 55, but 99? :-\
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08-10-2012, 05:58 AM
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#30
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 13,627
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Re: NL600 turn decision
Does it matter? Idiots will still barrel you when your range is super strong so it evens out. I much rather call AQ or AJ there than pocket pairs.
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