BB (player1) is a big whale, 60vpip.

MP (villain player4) is a winning reg, I expect him to be pretty wide preflop because of BB.

BB stabs 40% when flop checks thru, but like most whales he doesn't fold much to raises.

I can't come up with a single valuehand that MP would play like this, but at the same time it scares me that he is indeed raising the whale (and my perceived TP+).




Hand Information
No Limit, 6 BB (6 handed).
Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

Table Information
Seat: 1 Player 1 ($318) Big Blind
Seat: 2 Hero ($613.65)
Seat: 4 Player 4 ($600)
Seat: 6 Player 6 ($604.15)
Seat: 7 Player 7 ($610.65) Dealer
Seat: 9 Player 9 ($600) Small Blind
Dealt to Hero
**

Preflop (Pot:9)
Hero****RAISE $18
Player 4****CALL $18
Player 6****FOLD
Player 7****FOLD
Player 9****FOLD
Player 1****CALL $12

Flop(Pot: $57)
***

Player 1****CHECK
Hero****CHECK
Player 4****CHECK

Turn(Pot: $57)
****

Player 1****BET $42.75
Hero****CALL $42.75
Player 4****RAISE $138
Player 1****FOLD
Hero ?????

Dat flop check

You guys cbet this flop over at 25NL?

Dunno , i don't play 25nl , but this is a clear cbet otf

I bet flop. On turn I guess fold. He reps AK well enough for me. I think if you had the best hand he had KT or AcJc or something but what can ya do.

BET FLOP

looooool sit down

My guess is he flopped a set and checked behind on the dry flop.

If its a winning reg he doesnt start to make any idiot moves with crap. Especilly not when the whale is there too, I Think the most likely hand you beat here is J10 of clubs and with that hand he have a lot of outs. So a fold here is 99% correct imo.

I probably bet the flop too. What is your reasoning for checking?

I agree with the above that on the turn his range is probably AK and some turned strongish draws. Also, is possible he checked back KQ on that flop when the fish bets vs. missed flop cbets 40% of the time, particularly if he folds to a good number of flop cbets.

how do you reach the conclusion his range is AK or draws ?

AK and maybe KQ are the only hands which make sense. He shouldn't have too many draws given the positions and action.

I don't mind the flop check.

Against a whale with another caller he really should just be calling and trying to get paid off on turned draws unless it's a monster combo draw. It'd be pretty terrible to bluff raise a whale and a caller and I don't really think we're doing well against his value range. Fold.

What other value hands can it be? I don't think he would check last to act on the flop with a big fish in the pot with a good hand. So he bets 88 and 44 on the flop. I don't think he calls with something like K8 pre-flop in those positions. This leaves AK which makes sense as a call pre-flop given the positions and given the big fish behind. The other hand that may make sense is KQ, which makes more sense than the sets to check back on the flop since it is weaker and also blocks combos of top pair that the other players can have. I probably bet KQ on the flop though with the fish there.

And what would he raise with as a bluff? Maybe an AcJc type of hand, though just calling with such a hand is certainly also an option.

The fish has a VPIP of 60 or something, 3-betting AK pre would allow the fish to continue with a plethora of hands which he has excellent equity against , including dominated ones, in addition to likely making the pot HU , simply saying " he would flat pre because of the fish " is too simplistic IMO , combos wise we also block AK and as such if don't think we can really put him on that. Knowing that the fish stabs turn 40% and either hero or fish are likely to gain SDV from a turn card are good reasons he would check back a set, saying " he bets sets OTF because fish " is again too simplistic IMO. He likely interprets our range as capped due to the lack iof cbet + whale stabs 40% hence a turn semi-bluff raise with AJ or similar should generate enough FE + raw equity + implieds vs whale to be + EV for him.

Hero raises UTG, Winning reg acts next, 3 other players, Fish.

I was saying that I can see the Winning Reg just calling with AK pre-flop here given that the raiser is a competent player opening UTG and the Winning Reg is in MP with 6 players at the table and furthermore, this allows the Fish in the big blind to call with a very wide range. Are you saying that you expect the Winning Reg to always/almost always 3bet AK pre-flop here because you expect that the Fish will still cold call the 3bet very wide?

With respect to the flop, it may depend how loosely the Fish calls. But if the Fish calls a lot which many of these high VPIP guys do, then I wouldn't and I wouldn't expect others to check 44 and 88 last to act on this flop even if the fish bets 40% of the time vs. missed flop cbets (maybe if this was like 80%). And this is a multiway pot which maybe affects how often the Fish will stab at the turn.

What value hands are you betting on the flop as the Winning Reg if you always 3bet AK pre and don't bet 44 or 88? There aren't really all that many left. KQ is the obvious one left and I think I would rather check KQ on the flop than a set. Are you ever bluffing?

And, yea, I can see the turn being raised with hands like AcJc. I specifically mentioned that one. Or do you just mean AJ, not necessarily clubs?

Typed out a long response and phone flopped , one sec bro

Ok. I'm going to be driving for a while now anyway.

And I realized I forgot about AQ when I was talking about hands that the Winning Reg player could valuebet on the flop. I would still rather check the AQ than the sets on the flop, but I wouldn't be and would of course rather check the KQ than the AQ.

I fold turn. This is one of those spots where good, thinking players will realize your range is pretty heavily capped given the lack of a flop cbet against a whale, and can make your life miserable with turned draws/air/occasional slowplays. If you're aware you're playing against a player who will think this through and put you in tough spots you can start checking back a portion of your nutty hands, but you probably give up more missing a cbet against the whale than you make up by leveltrapping another reg. So just sigh-fold.

I think, because our entire range has to fold to this raise, this guy has a very good chance to be bluffing... Knowing how often the fish folds to raises would be nice... With the information above, I think we have to fold, the strength in villains range still outweighs those hands which bluff.

I actually don't mind a call

HAHA NIRWANDA WHY DID YOU ABANDON YOUR THREAD BUDDY?

really? i am now typing in all lower case letters

i also will not use periods commas or semicolons

but i did use a ?

sort your range out if ur getting these problems

SORRY, JUST ASKING WHY NIRWARNDA ABANDONED HIS THREAD AFTER EVERYONE DISAGREED WITH HIS PLAY. QUITE STRANGE BUDDY...