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NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb

11-16-2014 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda
Well, I don't even really have a donking range to begin with, but even if I did, AT certainly wouldn't be in it.



No, that's just called being out of position. You don't solve that problem by just donkbetting the top of your range. What about my 3barrel protection then? What about villains air that we want to keep in?

No offense, but you seem way out in deep water here. Do you play in these games?
Yeah as if I'd post here without playing in these games. By the time the turn comes, I don't see any point of having a check/call range unless hes a completely wacko maniac fish who will 3barrel with anything.

Playing any passive line on the turn is just going to lose you money against a normal player. I'd only be donking, check/raising, or check/folding my holdings on that turn after calling a flop bet. The worst thing you can do is put yourself in a passive situation.

And no, obviously you don't donkbet just the top of your range. You want a balanced donkbetting range. When you call a flop bet and then your range gets ahead of the initial aggressor's range, you have every right to take over as the aggressor. I've noticed that one of the things that separates the medium stakes players from the high stakes players is the ability to recognize when to donkbet in situations like these.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-17-2014 , 02:54 PM
You probably have a hand strong enough to just call river
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-17-2014 , 03:12 PM
98o would be pretty damn loose, i'd expect to see KQ/KJ with flush draw a high frequency and KQ/KJ no draw some amount but less than 50% i think

(edit: fiend ninja deleted his post about my turn barreling range for villain being too narrow)
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-17-2014 , 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz
You probably have a hand strong enough to just call river
This, if you are bluffing here I think you're bluffing way to many combos...interesting spot tho,

What's your reason for turning hand into bluff? Not sure you get him off better so just curious
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceFour
If you have AT after that action, you are doing something wrong.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaLettire
if you are bluffing here I think you're bluffing way to many combos
KsTx isn't that many combos.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 08:42 AM
I'm with deucefour fwiw.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda
KsTx isn't that many combos.
If you are using a hand as strong as KsT then you have lots of other bluffs also that make up a lot of combos
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 11:36 AM
Why did u decide to bluff? What are you trying to make him fold?
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaLettire
If you are using a hand as strong as KsT then you have lots of other bluffs also that make up a lot of combos
Which would those be?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaLettire
Why did u decide to bluff? What are you trying to make him fold?
Trips and flushes obviously, KK/QQ if he vbets thin.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-18-2014 , 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnss
dislike. x/r T2,T6,62 better candidates
This and even this could be bluffing too wide(unless you are v tight pre). Ks arguably blocks more of his folding range than his calling range.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-19-2014 , 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITSOVER9000
This and even this could be bluffing too wide(unless you are v tight pre). Ks arguably blocks more of his folding range than his calling range.
How often will hero have any of those hands though? Hardly ever surely. And how many hands will call the turn with boat blockers and without a spade? It's true that the Ks is not a good thing, maybe TQs etc would be better, but it's surely a reasonably decent bluffing hand (assuming that you can't call). It may not be high enough up the order, really don't know, but I don't see that it can be terrible.
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11-19-2014 , 10:54 PM
I think it's fine against the right type of player.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-20-2014 , 12:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton555
Also I think you can probably fold the turn. When you hold the Ks he has so few semibluffing hands that a reasonable betting range from villain will have a flush nearly half the time. Most of his complete air hands give up on the flop so you just don't beat much. I have you with 22% equity vs a range and it isn't like you're getting big implied odds on your flush draw. If you think he bets KQo gutters with no flush draw and stuff then of course go ahead and call. Here's what his range looks like on the river. He has 25% boats/quads if he bets his Ax (which IMO he checks). If he checks the Ax then you really need to fold out a huge amount of flushes.


Hello, first time publishing in TwoPlusTwo Forums! Maybe I am asking something stupid, sorry in advance, but why are there no semibluffs that keep betting to represent the ace on the turn and then they have no showdown hand on the river (and therefore bet again) when you build the range in Flopzilla? I am referring to 34, 45, 78, 89, QJ with no spade at all (therefore on the turn Villain doesn´t check behind because an additional card doesn´t improve much). Or would you rather check the turn if you are the villain and hit the ace (you get called with many 10s and flush draws)?

Last edited by RickyRubio19; 11-20-2014 at 12:36 AM.
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-20-2014 , 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda
Well, I don't even really have a donking range to begin with, but even if I did, AT certainly wouldn't be in it.



No, that's just called being out of position. You don't solve that problem by just donkbetting the top of your range. What about my 3barrel protection then? What about villains air that we want to keep in?

No offense, but you seem way out in deep water here. Do you play in these games?
What do you mean by your 3barrel protection? Could you elaborate? Would be very helpful...
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-20-2014 , 12:33 AM
Last question tonight Assuming Villain has a flush and decides to value bet the river to get called by worse hands, we deduct Villain does not put Hero on A2, A6 or A10. We were asking ourselves if Hero could hold any A10 on the BB. That is, would Hero 3bet all of his A10 (and A2s & A6s as well) in the BB? Here, as it is a 3-way pot if Hero calls, it is clear Hero will 3bet all of his A10 holdings to play a bigger pot in position against the fish, assuming Villain in the Button will fold 70% to the squeeze.

Let's assume SB folds and it is a HU pot BTN vs BB, is there any reason why you would want to mix your 3bet range, that is, flat call with Ax? In other words, could Nirwanda hold A10 with a reasonable x% frequency in this hand? We understand that if Villain opens 55% in the BTN and we 3bet like 40% of his OR, a considerable part of our 3bet range is polarized (K2s-K8s, Q2s-Q8s, J2s-J7s), so stronger holdings like Ax can be flat-called to difficult a read from opponents... Would you still value bet the river if you were Villain and you held a flush?
NL400: River x/r bluff for 120bb Quote
11-20-2014 , 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyRubio19
Hello, first time publishing in TwoPlusTwo Forums! Maybe I am asking something stupid, sorry in advance, but why are there no semibluffs that keep betting to represent the ace on the turn and then they have no showdown hand on the river (and therefore bet again) when you build the range in Flopzilla? I am referring to 34, 45, 78, 89, QJ with no spade at all (therefore on the turn Villain doesn´t check behind because an additional card doesn´t improve much). Or would you rather check the turn if you are the villain and hit the ace (you get called with many 10s and flush draws)?
The filtered range are the better hands we're trying to make fold by check/raising. He certainly has some bluffs as well but against those specific hands we would rather call instead of shove (since our hand is best). It is possible, though, that his bluff range is not wide enough and therefore we need to c/r this hand to avoid folding our equity the times he's bluffing, but we would need to make a substantial amount of his value betting range fold as well to justify this.
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01-19-2015 , 05:35 AM
I hate it.
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01-22-2015 , 06:22 PM
i like the play vs a button range of hands but if i was going to check raise it would be the turn as i am going to have a lot of flush combo's in my range from just calling a btn raise instead of check raising river as btn could easily call with a weak ace or boat and i think we are bluffing here so much of the time with a hand like middle pair and flush draw type which dont have enough equity to just flat the river.
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