400NL: When did a boat become thin value? - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Villain is solid TAG, 12/8/3 over 800 hands.

Is preflop spewy?

The river is a dilemma. He's not worried about betting into the top of my range. Surely he's checking AA and AK here? Do we call or shove the river, given that we're unlikely to get value from 2 pairs?

Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $592.20
Hero (UTG): $545.00
UTG+1: $400.00
MP: $553.30
CO: $523.60
BTN: $86.70
SB: $418.30

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with 5

Hero raises to $12, 5 folds, BB raises to $42, Hero calls $30

Flop: ($86.00) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($86.00) 5

(2 players)
BB bets $50, Hero calls $50

River: ($186.00) K

(2 players)
BB bets $88, Hero ???

Quote

07-07-2008 , 09:22 AM

Delphi

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 618

Why would he check AA, AK?
You're hand looks like 66+, he might find a valuebet.

As he will bet/fold worse (like AK, AA) and only call a shove with a hand that beats you, you should just call.

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07-07-2008 , 02:23 PM

RivrMeaDream

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,604

Minraise

Quote

07-07-2008 , 02:33 PM

brian4cards

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 329

just call imo
and yeah preflop is pretty spewy unless this guy is just pounding you every time you open

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07-07-2008 , 03:06 PM

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

Preflop is bad. I don't understand the point. You're not going to buy that much image with that kind of play. You don't have to get THAT fancy with your preflop play to win in this game. Just play tighter from EP and play more straightforward and you should be fine.
If river decisions like this are going to be perplexing to you then getting yourself in such messes by raising 54s from UTG isn't for you (at least not yet).

I don't like checking the flop either. You want to give him free chances to beat you with his AK or whatever?
Call the river.

Quote

07-07-2008 , 03:29 PM

CalledDownLight

Toonces the Posting Bot

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 88,413

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedveron

Surely he's checking AA and AK here?

huh?

Quote

07-07-2008 , 04:41 PM

Kelisitaan

banned

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,191

Pre is fine...in fact, folding is a huge leak with these stacks

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07-07-2008 , 05:08 PM

Dogboy714

adept

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 817

Figure out how much he will call with his AK and bet it.

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07-07-2008 , 05:15 PM

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

keli - Not playing 54s from UTG is a 'huge' leak?
It doesn't always have to be 'correct' or a 'huge leak'. There is some room for some in-between there too.
Even if it's potentially a +EV play for some players I don't think that folding 54s qualifies as a 'huge leak'.

Quote

07-07-2008 , 05:17 PM

#10

Kelisitaan

banned

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,191

Quote:

Originally Posted by MicroBob

I was talking about the calling of the reraise, not playing it from UTG...sorry for not making it clear

Quote

07-07-2008 , 05:33 PM

#11

SimaoMacaco

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,989

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelisitaan

Pre is fine...in fact, folding is a huge leak with these stacks

fish alert

Quote

07-07-2008 , 06:43 PM

#12

MicroBob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 61,575

Yeah, I think after you're already in the hand it would be stupid fold to a $30 raise.
Since villain is BB you even get position on him post-flop which is supposed to be a good thing.

Change some of this stuff around and you can reach "let it go" territory:
Such as the stacks being a bit smaller and/or the raise being a little bit bigger and/or the raiser doing so from MP or the button or something.
But as it is, once you're in the hand from UTG (for whatever image or EV reasons or whatever) I think calling that 3-bet is automatic.

Quote

07-07-2008 , 10:58 PM

#13

SABR42

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,065

No one has mentioned turn yet?

This is like the easiest turn raise ever.

Quote

07-07-2008 , 11:04 PM

#14

tvta

banned

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,460

Quote:

Originally Posted by SABR42

No one has mentioned turn yet?

This is like the easiest turn raise ever.

+1.

Quote

07-08-2008 , 02:16 AM

#15

zedveron

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,976

But wait. What does raising the turn accomplish? We're getting value on the river from any hand that will call our turn raise. And by flatting turn we still get value from bluffs on the river.

Edit: Just to expand, raising the turn after checking behind on the flop just looks sooooo strong. He might even find a fold with QQ/KK, and definitely smaller PPs, all of which we will get value from on the river IP. Flatting turn also gives him a chance to catch up on the river if he has AK, or bluff the river with hands like that if he misses.

Last edited by zedveron; 07-08-2008 at 02:22 AM.

Quote

07-08-2008 , 02:20 AM

#16

Try__An__Hit

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,958

fold pre. call the rivr

Quote

07-08-2008 , 02:39 AM

#17

SABR42

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedveron

Edit: Just to expand, raising the turn after checking behind on the flop just looks sooooo strong. He might even find a fold with QQ/KK, and definitely smaller PPs, all of which we will get value from on the river IP. Flatting turn also gives him a chance to catch up on the river if he has AK, or bluff the river with hands like that if he misses.

lololol this is completely wrong

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:11 AM

#18

zedveron

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,976

Quote:

Originally Posted by SABR42

lololol this is completely wrong

Care to explain why?

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:13 AM

#19

Kelisitaan

banned

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,191

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedveron

Care to explain why?

Because no one with half a brain would ever fold QQ/KK on this board in a reraised pot ever esp after u checked behind flop

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:14 AM

#20

SABR42

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,065

Raising this turn does not look strong at all because our range looks polarized.

You should be trying to stack overpairs. Sometimes they'll call down with any pair or ace-high.

If you can't raise this turn for value there is something wrong with your game.

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:21 AM

#21

zedveron

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,976

But we can still do all that on the river. We're stacking an overpair here no matter what, so why lose value from bluffs and an AK that might catch up/stack off willingly on the river (as would have happened in this case if he had AK) but would fold to a turn raise?

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:23 AM

#22

Kelisitaan

banned

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,191

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedveron

Because that line doesn't look like a bluff, whereas raising the turn does...and since you should be agro anyway, no one will ever give you credit for raises again if you don't raise this

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:27 AM

#23

SABR42

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 23,065

^ wut he said

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:27 AM

#24

zedveron

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,976

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelisitaan

Because that line doesn't look like a bluff, whereas raising the turn does...and since you should be agro anyway, no one will ever give you credit for raises again if you don't raise this

Ok now we're getting somewhere, good points ty.

Quote

07-08-2008 , 03:29 AM

#25

calvinzorr

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,798

Raise to $200ish. You cant put villain on a J because of his preflop 4bet. Looks like hes value betting river with AA AK on a relalively safe board. It is possible villain has KK, but thats very unlikey, and you'll be milking AA or AK most of the time.

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