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Medium Stakes PL/NL Discussions about medium stakes pot-limit and no-limit hold'em (2-4 to 5-10)

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Old 03-29-2017, 10:38 AM   #1
PhatPots
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Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Background: 2/5NL live at the Wynn.

Villain 1 has been really loose, playing a lot of pots. I think he is generally bad, but not 100% sure. He starts the hand with ~$450

Villain 2 has been loose but don't have any real reads yet. He starts the hand with ~$900. He hasn't done anything crazy in the hour that I have been at the table. Other than him being looser than the average bear.


Hero hasn't done much. Starts with $900


Preflop: Hero has 64
MP Raises to 25, Hero calls, Button (Villain 1 calls), SB (Villain 2 calls), BB folds.

Flop: 764
Check, Hero bets 65, Villain 1 raises to 265, Villain 2 thinks for a little bit and calls, UTG folds, hero?

I thought this was a marginal spot but I am not sure. If you fold this, do you call 76? 44?

Last edited by PhatPots; 03-29-2017 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:42 AM   #2
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

I don't know how this ended up in MTT. Can a mod move this to Midstakes NL please?
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:42 AM   #3
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Will move to appropriate forum.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:55 AM   #4
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

You 100% need to be folding this pre.

your flop bet size seems fine. Facing that action, its actually a pretty gross spot. I wouldn't expect either player to really show up with 85s, players at these limits are overcalling random suited stuff here. Despite your blockers there are still sets bigger than yours and this dude isn't value raising any made hand worse than yours.

I think this is a flop fold tbh. Facing this action, you are very likely drawing to 2 outs or worse
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:54 AM   #5
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

When I go to Vegas I play 1/2 or 1/3 because there's so many fishy players. Maybe I need to try 2/5.

I would never ever consider calling a 5x raise pre with this holding in this position. Maybe with multiple callers and if I was in the BB then yes OK but not here.

As played, nice strong bet size but I would fold to the raise. The turn will often ruin the strength of your hand and you could well be miles behind already vs made sets on the flop. I'd fold 67 aswell but 44 I don't think I could get away from.

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Old 03-29-2017, 12:43 PM   #6
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Calling 5bb with 64s in CO is likely losing a full big blind in EV. Huge mistake for a preflop one.

Flop, this might be better to check. You're not too strong 4way. Unlikely you want to put in a lot of money here (on the flop or later). While high cards on the turn play very well for you after flop checked around.

As played, I think you call and see what happens. Fold seems slightly tight, jam slightly loose. But depending on how you see their ranges folding and jamming can be reasonably for sure.
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:41 PM   #7
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnternet View Post
Calling 5bb with 64s in CO is likely losing a full big blind in EV. Huge mistake for a preflop one.

Flop, this might be better to check. You're not too strong 4way. Unlikely you want to put in a lot of money here (on the flop or later). While high cards on the turn play very well for you after flop checked around.

As played, I think you call and see what happens. Fold seems slightly tight, jam slightly loose. But depending on how you see their ranges folding and jamming can be reasonably for sure.
the king has spoken. read this as gospel OP
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:46 PM   #8
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Honestly, it might have been 20 preflop. But this was a very deep stack game. There were 5 players with over $2k. Lets get over preflop.

Calling the flop raise puts me in an awkward spot on the turn. There are so many bad cards and I won't know where I stand. I thought this has to be a shove or a fold.
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:23 PM   #9
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

3b or fold pre. Is the best option
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:05 PM   #10
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatPots View Post
Calling the flop raise puts me in an awkward spot on the turn. There are so many bad cards and I won't know where I stand. I thought this has to be a shove or a fold.
I think you have a very easy turn fold if there is action on spade/8/7/5/3
While you get a nice equity boost on the other cards and you get it in

If you don't get it in at least in OK shape on turn blanks, then your flop EQ is so bad that you should just fold flop.
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:33 AM   #11
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Yeah as others mentioned you can avoid these uncertain spots altogether by folding bad hands pre. As played, there are too many bad turns to justify a call on the flop. Given that villain 1 only has 150 behind at this point and villain 2 has closer to 600 and he elects to just flat the raise you're definitely ahead of his range so I'd just shove
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:06 PM   #12
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatPots View Post

Flop: 764
Check, Hero bets 65, Villain 1 raises to 265, Villain 2 thinks for a little bit and calls, UTG folds, hero?
Hero goes allin.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:02 PM   #13
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

I was in a similar situation recently--in fact, I made a post about it and hadn't seen this one with basically the same title. I think the point is valid that folding 64s pre is better EV, but now that you get to the flop and end up in this murky situation, it's worth mulling over. You can call pre with better holdings and end up in much the same situation.

It depends on how many semi-bluffs you give V1. You haven't shown particularly great strength by betting out here, and you could get raised by virtually all Ax:spades: and some 55. Depending on how aggressive (or perhaps poor) of a player he is, he may raise weak value like TT-88. If he decided to flat AA-JJ pre, he could decide to raise them now. For strong value, the ranges aren't so big: six combos of 77, one each of 66 and 44, and the extremely infrequent 85s. That's really ten combos, tops, next to ~14 combos of semi-bluffs, depending on how frisky he gets with AK-AJ suited pre, and 55 on the flop. Another thing to note is V1's raise is HUGE. Basically pot-sized after his call.

V2's range is flush-heavy here, I think. There's only one 64s left, only one 76s left, and maybe a couple 76o that he calls. I figure he jams with top set, and there are only two other sets left--not much. He's getting odds on a flush draw if that's what he has--especially if you call--and it looks from the size of V1's bet that it's going in on most turns.

Now that I think about it, working backwards from V2's flush-heaviness here, I guess that makes V1 value-heavy. After writing all of this (this didn't occur to me when I began), my conclusions are two:

(1) I have to think that the optimal decision would be based on how often you think V1 raises overpairs as weak value. Since V2 is flush-heavy, V1 has less flushes in his range, and the big question is where is his range weighted. I was in a similar situation, but the raiser didn't have a caller, and the raiser showed up with QQ that he flatted pre.

(2) Related to that, 64 and 44 are pretty similar, though V1's and V2's ranges change slightly. V2 could have more value if you had 44, but you would beat some of it. V1 now has 12 combos of sets, and those all beat 44. I'd be hard-pressed to have concluded this at the table, but 64 might actually be slightly more favorable against unknown but solid players.

Could be wrong. Would love feedback.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:46 PM   #14
Minatorr
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

Fold pre fold flop ez game
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:23 PM   #15
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Re: Bottom 2 on wet board 180BB Deep

1) loosen up with you play against tight players, tighten up when you play against loose players. 64s is a 30/70 call vs loose player for me vs one single opponenent raising in MP, that deep. vs tight player on the other hand it might be 60/30/10 (call/fold/3bet ratio)

2) you qualify them as loose, but as mentionned by others at this limit full ring, do you have AXs or 57(o or s) in button s range?
What really worry me is OR s cold call , I would fold and wait for better spot.
even vs 57o we are not much much ahead.

with 44 it is different because vs a hand like 57o or 78o we dominate more .

So decision is actually more interesting with 44 here... (66 is very hard to fold and 44 is extremely tough decision), I might not be able to convince myself to fold -> you?
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