AK 4 bet shoved preflop - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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AK 4 bet shoved preflop

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07-16-2015 , 04:59 AM

Ativan

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 539

UTG+1 raises to 6, hero (c/o) 3 bets AKo to $21, Button shoves $211 in pot. Folded to hero, who has villain covered. 1.27 : 1. No info on villain.

Hero's best play?

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07-17-2015 , 01:39 PM

Thomca

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 70

Without info is coin flip and hero losing money, Easy fold for me.

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07-17-2015 , 07:04 PM

Ativan

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomca

Without info is coin flip and hero losing money, Easy fold for me.

If it's a flip we are getting odds to call.

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07-18-2015 , 02:19 AM

Maganda's Big Fish

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 308

Easy fold unless you like flipping coins

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07-18-2015 , 05:22 AM

Ativan

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maganda's Big Fish

Easy fold unless you like flipping coins

I don't like flipping coins as EV = 0. But if this truly is a flip, we are +EV.

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07-18-2015 , 03:38 PM

PLBlow

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 445

Fold;

best case scenario, QQ; AK
worst case scenario, AA, KK

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07-20-2015 , 10:54 AM

Peter3041

adept

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 1,057

Depends a lot on game flow and villain. He just looks like he has AK and the fact that he just straight rips 100BB makes me discount AA and KK. Unless he is some fishy nit that just always has it. Think you are almost always a flip, sometimes you are behind, but i think you are also head sometimes, although rarely. I call and take notes on what villain shows up with.

UTG+1 does matter here too.

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07-21-2015 , 09:17 PM

Foots7

stranger

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter3041

^^^^call and pull out the note pad. Its def the high variance route. but +ev. if the bankroll is healthy, fist pump call. if its case money on the table, you gotta fold.

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07-21-2015 , 09:49 PM

epdog2005

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 187

This spot is why a flat here pre is appealing

Sent from my SM-G900P using 2+2 Forums

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07-21-2015 , 10:14 PM

#10

ebet33

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,994

Calling very fast here Not rly close
Some prty bad posts itt

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07-22-2015 , 04:22 PM

#11

archimedes11

adept

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,135

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebet33

Some prty bad posts itt

Yeah, like by people who write prty instead of pretty

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07-22-2015 , 04:27 PM

#12

archimedes11

adept

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,135

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 38.82% 18.15% 20.68% { AKo }
MP3 61.18% 40.50% 20.68% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

1.27:1 we need like, what, 37%? So apparently this is a call then. Dunno if villain plays AA like that, but if he doesn't cold 4bet jam AA then this is a clear call I guess. On the one hand because he's short I'd guess that he'd have AA in his range, but the shortstack argument also should mean he could even have JJ I guess. Although if we take it to the next level, a shorty should know that he's getting called slightly lighter, meaning he should be jamming tighter.

Last edited by archimedes11; 07-22-2015 at 04:35 PM.

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07-22-2015 , 04:52 PM

#13

BonitaMadras

adept

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 760

the 3b preflop is too big, 16-18 $ is better imo.

As played the spot changes a lot with several factors. What is UTG's image ? your own image, are you 3-betting a lot ? Are there fish in the blinds ?

Villain reps extremely strong, since you 3b vs. early position and everybody and their mother are still left to act.
To call you need a little over 44% equity.

Worst case: vs. KK+, AK you have 37%
Best case: vs. QQ, AK ~ 47%
still pretty optimistic: vs. KK, QQ, AK ~ 44%
remove some QQ or mix in some AA once in a blue moon and this is a fold.

I'm folding the first time around and feeling pretty good about it.

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07-22-2015 , 06:00 PM

#14

archimedes11

adept

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,135

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonitaMadras

the 3b preflop is too big, 16-18 $ is better imo.

As played the spot changes a lot with several factors. What is UTG's image ? your own image, are you 3-betting a lot ? Are there fish in the blinds ?

Villain reps extremely strong, since you 3b vs. early position and everybody and their mother are still left to act.
To call you need a little over 44% equity.

Worst case: vs. KK+, AK you have 37%
Best case: vs. QQ, AK ~ 47%
still pretty optimistic: vs. KK, QQ, AK ~ 44%
remove some QQ or mix in some AA once in a blue moon and this is a fold.

I'm folding the first time around and feeling pretty good about it.

Uh, you know we only need 37% to call, right? (cause 1.27:1)

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07-22-2015 , 08:28 PM

#15

ebet33

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,994

Quote:

Originally Posted by archimedes11

This is not a good assumption of his range

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07-22-2015 , 09:14 PM

#16

archimedes11

adept

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,135

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebet33

This is not a good assumption of his range

I think it's a worst-case scenario though. If that range is too tight then it makes it a slam dunk call.

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07-22-2015 , 10:03 PM

#17

highhustla

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,201

Quote:

Originally Posted by epdog2005

This spot is why a flat here pre is appealing

Sent from my SM-G900P using 2+2 Forums

This spot = facing a standard UTG+1 raise w/ AK, and not 3-betting just in case the button cold 4-bet jams?

I guess logic like this is why poker will never die.

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07-23-2015 , 03:26 AM

#18

BonitaMadras

adept

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 760

Quote:

Originally Posted by archimedes11

Uh, you know we only need 1 / (1+1.27) = 44% equity to call, right? (cause 1.27:1)

fyp

i think you made a typo and used 1.7:1 instead of 1.27:1

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07-23-2015 , 03:31 AM

#19

BonitaMadras

adept

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 760

Quote:

Originally Posted by highhustla

This spot = facing a standard UTG+1 raise w/ AK, and not 3-betting just in case the button cold 4-bet jams?

I guess logic like this is why poker will never die.

also this.

We get called by enough worse hands and can play back profitably against a 4b from UTG+1.
We don`t need to worry about folding AK to BTNs shove as we are well protected by all the active players still left behind.

I`m too lazy to do a CREV tree atm, but my guess is that Button`s shove is probably -EV with AK, let alone with other bluffs.

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07-28-2015 , 06:40 PM

#20

Maciej

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 61

I think this a fold especially if you don't have any information on the villain

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08-01-2015 , 10:55 PM

#21

Mustard_Tiger

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 172

folding here vs an unknown is really bad.

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08-02-2015 , 02:32 PM

#22

Peter3041

adept

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 1,057

Against an unknown think you have to call, only behind AA and KK, and this is a super weird line with those so without info gotta call.

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