Hero stepped up from 2-4 to 5-5-10 recently and running well up $15k over first three sessions, LAG winning image. table full of regs.

V TAG (BTN) and I have some history from session one week ago. I'd raised AJ over one limper and was called by this V and limper. Flop J83r, Hero cbet, V call, 2 turn completing r, Hero tank b/f 275 to V 800 c/jam. we'd discussed this hand a few minutes ago when V sat down.

UTG1 opens 30, calls from MP, HJ, CO (Hero - KhQc), BTN, BB

Flop (195) KcQdJc
checked to BTN

non-std line? i am ofc giving up some value if it checks through but i want to see a turn card before deciding the best line 6-handed on a flop that hits everyone with deep stacks 1K to 3K. turn might be value time or pot control.

BTN (1100) bets 155, folded to Hero (3.5k)

Hero raises to 400.

i can c/c to the river on safe runouts, but given stack sizes and a V range that includes a ton of pr+draw multis, I opted to c/r->gii. i think this does funky things with my repped range (Qcxc etc) and gets called wide especially after the flop check.

V calls. Hero throws in a 1K chip before turn is dealt.

Turn 2s (or some other brick)

V tanks and calls. he was working out my range out loud trying to figure if I'd possibly play AT this way (i wouldn't) and I started to wonder whether he'd failed to b/shove T9 otf.

Thoughts?

1) not betting flop is a mistake.

2) after checking flop to btn you should not have a raising range.

3) after check calling flop your plan should be to checkraise most turns and get it in.

Top 2 pair on this texture deepstacked in a multiway single raised pot is not a nutted hand. Against competent Vs you're smoked by stack off ranges.

C/r is a huge over play

Sqz pre

Reading that hand history felt like a bad dream

3b or fold pre

x/r otf and tossing 1k chip out before turn is spew

Why would you c/r flop and bet $1k blind on the most coordinated board possible.

This isn't like c/r K72 rainbow with 222 and betting $1k blind. There are a ton of turn cards where villain just knows he has the nuts (Ax, Tx, club).. seems like burning money to me.

Lucky for you, you ginned a brick turn.

Agree with other posts that I'd either lead flop, and if I wasn't leading flop it is with the intention of c/c to pot control. c/c flop and c/r turn also seems spewy to me.

You can probably almost checkraise get it in vs villain with his SPR and that board, but that still doesnt make it best. Just bet the flop as the CO on such a wet board vs so many opponents. Just realize, as said before, that if you take a bunch(or any noncalling) heat, you are likely in trouble here.

Don't worry about funky things to your range in a live setting on a 6 way coordinated board. You hit and want to protect/get value if you can, so bet.

thnx for responses. couple of questions:

1. am i wrong to include more 2pr and multi combos (all of which we currently beat/= and few of which will fold to c/r jam) in V range than T9/AT combos?

2. if at least two players in this hand are betting frequently at scare cards and will likely force a runout decision for 1.5K+ on a club/9/8/A turn or river (whether V has it or not), would this affect anyone's decision to lead flop? i'm wary of spots like this where half the deck improves any V range and i'm almost forced to call down with my hands over my eyes.

as for putting V in blind ott:

3. does V ever b/c T9 or AT otf? once he does b/c i'm excluding those hands (except one combo ATcc) and believe I have him dominated.

4. are we ever folding to any turn with SPR~1? do we know which multi gets there if any particular turn card comes? half the deck improves half (maybe less) of V range but which half?

k disappointed this didn't generate more discussion. thought line given ranges/risk was ok. V had bottom two pair, put me on busted multi and called turn. brick river.

I think the 1k chip toss before the turn is spewy, but you did mix it up, which I like.

What would you have done if he shoved all in? Since it was just 30 preflop could your villian have T9 in his hand? or A10? I think so.

Next time I wouldn't bet so much because your opponent more often than not has you crushed.

Glad to know you won it though

i think c/c is worse then c/r OTF. I don't always fire turn though and especially not blind and that big. I just lead flop though so this discussion is pretty irrelevent

if main proposal here is lead/decide then pls indicate a rough gameplan for (i) handling a raise (ii) brick turns (iii) c, A, J, T, 9 turns.

i couldn't come up with a plan I was happy with against an agg/bluffy multiway field, deep stacked. given the dynamic, any plan should allow a significant non-nutted V ranges (worse 2pr, all multis, few sets) for both V raise and call.


prob need to resolve first part before deciding whether second (c/c or c/r) is worth discussion.

Deleted as redundant

I agree with both of these

C/R implies that you're ready to stack off, but what hands are willing to do this that you're beating? When you open UTG and then c/r into THREE PEOPLE you're screaming strength on a scary board. I think you'll fold out some QJ and maybe KJ can find a fold as well. Coupled with the UTG open when you do this on this board AQcc is the bottom of your perceived range. Good/patient players will be folding a lot of hands to this. You're far more likely to get called by hands that have you beat than ones that you are beating.

The other problem with this board is that there are more hands that will call than will bet. 10 8cc will call, but probably wont bet. 1010 may call but probably wont bet same goes for AQ, J10 and several other hands. A large % of the time people are not bluffing/semi bluffing this board, they're value betting, and since you block off a lot of combos of made hands you need to try and get value from callers as opposed to expecting people to bet for you.


From here you can check or bet the turn. I'm in favor of betting on such a draw heavy board because on the turn you really don't care if some hands fold out their equity. The hands you are still ahead of that have yet to realize their equity are pretty likely to beat you once they do. This is a case where if the turn checks through people are most likely only putting more money in the pot with hands that beat you. C/R isn't terrible either, but I think in the long run you're going to make more money from people calling with inferior hands than you will from people that bet an inferior hand than then call a raise. Also if you are raised on the turn it allows you to potentially get away if you've got a good read on your opponent, and considering the type of board this is it's very likely you're beat if raised. I'm not saying fold, but you get more info from being raised on this board than you do from your c/r being called.

If the turn is called then just bet the river for value.

This game sounds awesome

This has to be a troll.

agree, you can lead this board, but to check raise for a stack into potential 9T,JJ,AT and a rare KK and QQ is just lighting $ on fire. I would x/x flop, play turn, never put all my $ in here OTF as you can be drawing very thin, if not drawing dead.

i'd rather x/r QK on like an 883 board 3 way as a bluff w/ 6 clean, than to ever make this spazzy all-in.

What do you do if he shoves here ? V's range includes a lot of A 10 and 10 9 as well as some JJs after flatting pre. Would it not be better to keep the pot a reasonable size by either leading all c/c and being able to get away from your hand if one of the draws drop, as V will also have some pr+ flush draw combos as well as some A X type hands.

Throwing in the 1k chip seeems super speeeeeeeeewy