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Old 06-14-2012, 08:52 AM   #1
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400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

Villain in this hand is 29/23/8% 3bet/16% 4bet - 71/59/40 f/t/r cbet stats respectively over 1.5k hands. I have a lot of history with villain. He views me as splashy/borderline fishy maniac. I've been 3-betting the table a ton from all positions and he's aware of that. The biggest pot we played prior to this one is this hand below. I trusted my read and played the hand in this fashion because I have a rock solid read on villain that he always slowplays big hands IP to induce barrels no matter what the board texture so his raising range here is extremely extremely weak:

Merge $400.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: $582.50
CO: $328.79
BTN: $400.00
Hero (SB): $593.94
BB: $599.60
UTG: $255.76

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is SB with 5 5
4 folds, Hero raises to $12, BB calls $8

Flop: ($24.00) 6 Q 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $16.00, BB raises to $53.33, Hero raises to $125, BB calls $71.67

Turn: ($274.00) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $137.00, Hero raises to $456.94, BB calls $319.94

River: ($1187.88) T (2 players)

Final Pot: $1187.88
Hero shows 5 5
BB shows A 4
Hero wins $1184.38
(Rake: $3.50)

With that in mind, villain probably just views me as clicking buttons. Nothing much happened since that hand. He 3bet me a couple of times, I folded one and 4bet bluffed the other which he folded to. I also have a very good read that villain cannot value bet thin at all and that he pot controls one pair a lot on the turn and river in 3bet pots. Villain just won a big pot off of a fish so he's definitely not tilting or anything. Here's the hand:

Merge $400.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $314.66
BB: $162.60
UTG: $657.50
Hero (CO): $1059.65
BTN: $922.98

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is CO with K A
UTG raises to $12, Hero raises to $36, BTN calls $36, 2 folds, UTG calls $24

Flop: ($114.00) J T 5 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $76.00, UTG folds, Hero calls $76

Turn: ($266.00) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $199.50, Hero calls $199.50

River: ($665.00) T (2 players)


Okay so I know that villain likes to call all suited connectors/suited aces/small pocket pairs against my raises pre-flop 100 BBs deep. I think his cold-calling range includes 22-QQ, TJs, KQ, AQ, AK, AJsuited. I doubt he's ever 4-betting AK given depth of stacks or QQ for that matter. He plays so straightforward that I immediately remove KK/AA from his range when he cold calls since he would want to get more money in pre-flop given stack sizes.

I decided to check the flop since it sucks getting raised, it hits a cold callers range pretty hard, and we have showdown value. I think his range for betting the flop is AK/AQ/QQ/KQ/55/89s/TT/JJ/JTs. I decide to peel the flop for reason I said above plus I have a nut draw. I think his range narrows considerably on the turn when he bets again. I think his range shrinks to AQ/KQ/TT/JJ/JTs/55. He would definitely check QQ here for pot control as well as 89s. I discount him having any random T9s type hand here since he would definitely check flop with that. I also discount a chop AK since i think he plays showdown value with it from the flop onwards instead of tripling with it. I call again, thoughts?

Given all that, do you think a shove here is a bluff often enough to justify a call given how much money is already in the pot? Once the T hits the river he reps extremely narrow since quads is really hard to make. His value range is like KQcc, JJ, 55, JThh, TT

Anyone play the hand differently at any point? Thanks for your input
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:24 AM   #2
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

Quote:
villain cannot value bet thin at all
The turn bet with 3rd pair in hand 1 is pretty thin if you ask me

I would fold, because he may randomly bluff a pair (like i hand 1). But you have the rock solid reads on villain that we don't have, so seems pointless to ask us what you should do. Just stove the range that you give him and make a decision based on the outcome
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:36 AM   #3
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

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Originally Posted by Bramsterdam View Post
The turn bet with 3rd pair in hand 1 is pretty thin if you ask me

I would fold, because he may randomly bluff a pair (like i hand 1). But you have the rock solid reads on villain that we don't have, so seems pointless to ask us what you should do. Just stove the range that you give him and make a decision based on the outcome
Hand 1 is completely different though. I can expand on what I mean by not being able to value bet thin in 3bet pots. Like he'll c-bet JJ on Qxx and then check both turn and river both IP/OOP etc when the board texture doesn't change with a high freq. I think in hand 1 he just puts me on air so he wants to take it down not face a river decision etc then leveled himself into a call. I obv never expected to get called by worse in hand 1 i just thought he's floating there a very high % of the time.

Also I'm asking about if playing flop/turn like this is okay with this hand in this spot or is this just burning money against most people/this particular villain etc. I'd play overpairs/sets like this given stack sizes in this situation against non-fish so I think my relative hand strength should be about the same getting to the river range v range
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:46 AM   #4
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

c/c turn hand 1

Hand 2 i prefer betting, because AK is too weak to c/c imo
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:16 AM   #5
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree View Post
Hand 1 is completely different though. I can expand on what I mean by not being able to value bet thin in 3bet pots. Like he'll c-bet JJ on Qxx and then check both turn and river both IP/OOP etc when the board texture doesn't change with a high freq. I think in hand 1 he just puts me on air so he wants to take it down not face a river decision etc then leveled himself into a call. I obv never expected to get called by worse in hand 1 i just thought he's floating there a very high % of the time.

Also I'm asking about if playing flop/turn like this is okay with this hand in this spot or is this just burning money against most people/this particular villain etc. I'd play overpairs/sets like this given stack sizes in this situation against non-fish so I think my relative hand strength should be about the same getting to the river range v range
I'm confused as to why you'd play overpairs and sets like this against this villain. You've stated he doesn't value thinly in 3BP and he always slowplays big hands, so by c/c here you lose the same against his sets when you have an overpair (vs when you just bet/bet/jam) and win the least when he has a TP/QQ type hand which he pot controls always.

Also, I don't see how it sucks to get raised by this villain on this flop. With your reads he's on air 100% of the time (always slowplays IP) so you could 3-bet bluff flop or call and check-shove turns that don't hit his gutters. It seems like we should LOVE getting raised on this flop by this specific villain, no?
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:09 PM   #6
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

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Originally Posted by Ingenol View Post
I'm confused as to why you'd play overpairs and sets like this against this villain. You've stated he doesn't value thinly in 3BP and he always slowplays big hands, so by c/c here you lose the same against his sets when you have an overpair (vs when you just bet/bet/jam) and win the least when he has a TP/QQ type hand which he pot controls always.

Also, I don't see how it sucks to get raised by this villain on this flop. With your reads he's on air 100% of the time (always slowplays IP) so you could 3-bet bluff flop or call and check-shove turns that don't hit his gutters. It seems like we should LOVE getting raised on this flop by this specific villain, no?
I just meant that in this specific spot because of the fact that's it's a 3-handed 3-bet pot and it's 230 bbs deep so that changes the dynamics some and I think the freq% of a raise with air goes way down and weights his range more towards value hands on this particular board texture plus I did 3bet a UTG open next to act. You know all that stuff, i have a hard time conveying all my thoughts

Last edited by catch thirtythree; 06-14-2012 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:26 AM   #7
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

i'd c/f flop in hand 2

board smacks his range, you're oop and guessing for very minor EV given the hands that have missed will have decent equity
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:56 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree View Post
I just meant that in this specific spot because of the fact that's it's a 3-handed 3-bet pot and it's 230 bbs deep so that changes the dynamics some and I think the freq% of a raise with air goes way down and weights his range more towards value hands on this particular board texture plus I did 3bet a UTG open next to act. You know all that stuff, i have a hard time conveying all my thoughts
Good analysis on the dynamics and how his range is more weighted towards value hands in this spot. So I would probably c/f this hand factoring in that it is 3 way and not such a dry board although you say he has a high freq. of slow playing IP on any texture. Just hard to put him on garbage at this stage.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:58 AM   #9
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenol View Post
I'm confused as to why you'd play overpairs and sets like this against this villain. You've stated he doesn't value thinly in 3BP and he always slowplays big hands, so by c/c here you lose the same against his sets when you have an overpair (vs when you just bet/bet/jam) and win the least when he has a TP/QQ type hand which he pot controls always.

Also, I don't see how it sucks to get raised by this villain on this flop. With your reads he's on air 100% of the time (always slowplays IP) so you could 3-bet bluff flop or call and check-shove turns that don't hit his gutters. It seems like we should LOVE getting raised on this flop by this specific villain, no?
yeah, these were my thoughts exactly.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:14 PM   #10
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

I would call simply because you've made it that far in the pot to give up.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:03 PM   #11
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

That's a great reason^^^
Image posting ftw!
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:04 PM   #12
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

Wow sick hand 1- seems like clicking buttons but I guess it worked. Why do you 3bet on the flop if you know that he slowplay all his hands against you and is basically bluffing? With that read I would just flat and want to make him bet an empty shell on the turn and shove ott.

hand 2- i would still bet the flop. You guys are pretty deep and villain is on the button and w previous history i see him calling w wider stuff. As played im check folding the river
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:48 PM   #13
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Re: 400NL: AK 230 BBs deep. Call off on river?

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Originally Posted by RaiseIt View Post
Wow sick hand 1- seems like clicking buttons but I guess it worked. Why do you 3bet on the flop if you know that he slowplay all his hands against you and is basically bluffing? With that read I would just flat and want to make him bet an empty shell on the turn and shove ott.

hand 2- i would still bet the flop. You guys are pretty deep and villain is on the button and w previous history i see him calling w wider stuff. As played im check folding the river
Well in hand 1 i did what i did cause my hand is too vulnerable to call down and I don't want him to pick up a draw on the turn and check back then i'm clueless on the river
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