I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)
12-25-2008
, 02:27 AM
I thought about putting this nvg or some other forum. But my roots are with hsnl and there are way more hsnl'ers who know me than any other forum. There's also alot of foxwoods players who post here. If I'm wrong, mods can move it but i'd like it to stay here for awhile if that's ok.
*******
For quite some time now I've almost entirely stopped playing online poker. I've transitioned to a live pro with my play almost exclusively at foxwoods. I'm not a college kid. I'm 34 years old. I have a family. 2 kids, a wife, 2 dogs, a house, a mortgage payment. 95% of my income is derived from foxwoods and I would never EVER put my income and my ability to provide for my family at risk. That being said, here I am. Banned from foxwoods. For Life. Forever. If you love tl;dr stories, read on. I've explained how it happened with every last detail.
Last saturday Dec 20th around 4pm I was playing an 8-handed 10/20nl game at foxwoods and found myself involved in a pot with a guy who i've seen at foxwoods a couple times before. The pot was $1075 on a flop of 10
86. Villian open-shoved $2550 and I eventually called with A
A. Before the dealer had a chance to burn the next card, my opponent asked if I wanted to "do business." As we both turned our cards face up (he held 7
9 for flopped straight) I explained that foxwoods does not allow running it twice but they will allow us to do an EQUITY CHOP. He said he didn't know what that was so i explained how we figure out the % is for each hand and chop the pot accordingly which completely eliminates the variance so neither of us has to play a 6k pot as almost a coin flip. I explained that it does not benefit either player. Using a poker calculator I have installed on my iphone, showed him it was 60/40 in his favor and explained that he would get 60% of the entire pot no matter what. In the middle of our discussion, I called the floor to make sure there wouldn't be any problems. The floorman who arrived said he had to check with his boss so he called over a floor manager. The floor manager's name is Michael and has a moustache but am unsure of his last name atm. The FM told us "We don't allow equity chops here but as long as you guys both agree then it's fine as long as you settle up the money on the side." That quote is VERBATIM. He explained that someone must be awarded the pot and that what we do after that is our own business.
At this point the dealer was about to burn the next card so I stopped him and asked my opponent if he wanted to do the equity chop. He said "Yes." I asked him if he understood what it is and why we're doing it. He said "Yes." I asked him a second time if he agrees to the equity chop. He again agreed.
The turn and river bricked out so the dealer shipped him the pot. I walked over to his side of the table at the 1 seat. Together we calculated that $2470 was mine and the rest was his. He handed me that exact amount in chips. I walked over to my side of the table and placed the chips next to my stack when Michael the Floor Manager stopped me and told us that the chips cannot leave his stack. He has to pay me in cash out of his pocket. My opponent said he doesn't have any cash in his pocket and that everything is on the table. The floor manager never told us that the chips couldn't leave the stack. I never even thought to bring it up.
I told him I regretted it turning out this way but that he would have to pick up from the game, pay me out and then come back 1 hour from now and buy back into the game. I suggested we both go and eat a nice dinner, on me of course. He said there was no way he could leave the game because he was stuck too much from the weekend and he was only playing another 4 or 5 hours anyway. He said he'd pay me out after he cashed out. We bantered back and forth on this topic a few times but I knew he wouldn't budge. I also felt that if I pressed the issue aggressively then he might not pay me at all. So I backed off and agreed to let him pay me out when he was done.
At around 6pm, his stack was ground down to less than $3000 so I pulled him aside and told him that we needed to settle up. He now explained that he was staked in the game by Frankie Flowers.
(cliff notes back story: 2 months ago I caught Frankie Flowers cheating in a 10/20nl game we were playing in. He was working with another player at the table to collude. I caught him in the act of doing so. The game was halted, floor was called and chaos ensued. Since that ordeal, he has openly told everyone who will listen how much he hates me)
He said that Frankie told him not to pay me a dime. He said that Frankie told him to f*k me over. Knowing Frankie's character, I found this as no surprise. He said he can't pick up from the game because Frankie had someone watching him. So again, with no bargaining power, I sat back down and waited, hoping he'd run up his stack and not go broke.
At around 9pm, he had his stack up to ~$7500 so I leaned over to him and said we had to do something. He threw me five $100 chips and said "take that for now. I'm picking up soon." I took it as an act of good faith and felt I may actually get the rest of my money now.
Well at 10:15pm he racked up his chips and picked up from the game without saying a word to me. I walked over near the poker room desk and waited until he came back from the cage. When he came back he told me he can't pay me anything at all because Frankie doesn't want to give me any money. After a long argument, I told him to forget it. I told him he doesn't owe me anything. He screwed me over for $2000. Congrats to him.
I walked over to Frankie's 5/10nl table, stood next to it and said "You don't owe me $2000 and neither does your friend. I'm done with both of you. You guys ran a good scam screwing me over. You can angle-shoot some poor kid out a 50k pot in the tournament today and then you refuse to play me $2000 that is rightfully mine. You can also cheat and collude in the 10/20nl game like I caught you doing 2 months ago. You can do all of that but right now I'm done with both of guys. You don't owe me anything."
He replied in front of the whole table and everyone else watching, "You know what I told him to do? I told him to f*k you over! I told him not give you a f*king cent. I told him to to f*k ya! How you like that?"
I didn't reply. I walked away from the table, ready to get my chips and leave when Villian in this whole ordeal came up to me and started yelling at me. He got right in my personal space, yelling obscenities at me, pointing his finger in my face. I didn't raise my voice or a finger at him. A minute later, security jumped in and separated us. I immediately walked over to the now-empty 10/20nl table and counted and racked up my chips.
A security officer approached me a few minutes later asking to go talk to his boss. I then sat down with 2 security supervisors who asked me to "start from the beginning." So I did. I retold the story 2 times, exactly how it happened. I tried not to forget a single thing. I told the story as accurately as possible and didn't embellish a single detail because I certainly didn't have to. How could I possibly be at fault? During my discussion with them, they kept asking me to describe the equity pot situation again. So I did. Two different times she said "you do understand that foxwoods doesn't allow these types of deals don't you." Each time I said "Yes I know but the floorman allowed us to do it on the side. Foxwoods didn't do the equity chop. We did it ourselves on the side because the floor manager told us we could do it that way."
After we were done discussing it, she said "This is what's going to happen. Because you did this equity chop and knowingly broke one of foxwoods rules, you are going to be banned permanently from foxwoods." I pleaded but obv to no avail. She took me aside and took my picture. She escorted me over the cage and my box so I could empty it. She then had a security officer escort me through the poker room and all the way over to the hotel where my bags were and out to valet. I had to sign documents stating that I won't come onto foxwoods property ever again or I'll be arrested. It was perhaps the most humiliating and unjust thing that has ever happened to me.
Over the past few days I've been working on gathering up information for a letter I am writing to get reinstated. The security supervisor told me it could be only 2 or 3 weeks. But I've heard it could be 6 months or more before I'm reinstated. I know of someone who was reinstated after 3 years. I'm writing that letter and also reevaluation my career options as well. I won't leave poker that's for sure. But I may be forced to go back to playing the back-room games around boston and play online once again.
Cliff notes: Don't make equity chops at foxwoods.
later,
HEK
*******
For quite some time now I've almost entirely stopped playing online poker. I've transitioned to a live pro with my play almost exclusively at foxwoods. I'm not a college kid. I'm 34 years old. I have a family. 2 kids, a wife, 2 dogs, a house, a mortgage payment. 95% of my income is derived from foxwoods and I would never EVER put my income and my ability to provide for my family at risk. That being said, here I am. Banned from foxwoods. For Life. Forever. If you love tl;dr stories, read on. I've explained how it happened with every last detail.
Last saturday Dec 20th around 4pm I was playing an 8-handed 10/20nl game at foxwoods and found myself involved in a pot with a guy who i've seen at foxwoods a couple times before. The pot was $1075 on a flop of 10
86. Villian open-shoved $2550 and I eventually called with AA. Before the dealer had a chance to burn the next card, my opponent asked if I wanted to "do business." As we both turned our cards face up (he held 79 for flopped straight) I explained that foxwoods does not allow running it twice but they will allow us to do an EQUITY CHOP. He said he didn't know what that was so i explained how we figure out the % is for each hand and chop the pot accordingly which completely eliminates the variance so neither of us has to play a 6k pot as almost a coin flip. I explained that it does not benefit either player. Using a poker calculator I have installed on my iphone, showed him it was 60/40 in his favor and explained that he would get 60% of the entire pot no matter what. In the middle of our discussion, I called the floor to make sure there wouldn't be any problems. The floorman who arrived said he had to check with his boss so he called over a floor manager. The floor manager's name is Michael and has a moustache but am unsure of his last name atm. The FM told us "We don't allow equity chops here but as long as you guys both agree then it's fine as long as you settle up the money on the side." That quote is VERBATIM. He explained that someone must be awarded the pot and that what we do after that is our own business. At this point the dealer was about to burn the next card so I stopped him and asked my opponent if he wanted to do the equity chop. He said "Yes." I asked him if he understood what it is and why we're doing it. He said "Yes." I asked him a second time if he agrees to the equity chop. He again agreed.
The turn and river bricked out so the dealer shipped him the pot. I walked over to his side of the table at the 1 seat. Together we calculated that $2470 was mine and the rest was his. He handed me that exact amount in chips. I walked over to my side of the table and placed the chips next to my stack when Michael the Floor Manager stopped me and told us that the chips cannot leave his stack. He has to pay me in cash out of his pocket. My opponent said he doesn't have any cash in his pocket and that everything is on the table. The floor manager never told us that the chips couldn't leave the stack. I never even thought to bring it up.
I told him I regretted it turning out this way but that he would have to pick up from the game, pay me out and then come back 1 hour from now and buy back into the game. I suggested we both go and eat a nice dinner, on me of course. He said there was no way he could leave the game because he was stuck too much from the weekend and he was only playing another 4 or 5 hours anyway. He said he'd pay me out after he cashed out. We bantered back and forth on this topic a few times but I knew he wouldn't budge. I also felt that if I pressed the issue aggressively then he might not pay me at all. So I backed off and agreed to let him pay me out when he was done.
At around 6pm, his stack was ground down to less than $3000 so I pulled him aside and told him that we needed to settle up. He now explained that he was staked in the game by Frankie Flowers.
(cliff notes back story: 2 months ago I caught Frankie Flowers cheating in a 10/20nl game we were playing in. He was working with another player at the table to collude. I caught him in the act of doing so. The game was halted, floor was called and chaos ensued. Since that ordeal, he has openly told everyone who will listen how much he hates me)
He said that Frankie told him not to pay me a dime. He said that Frankie told him to f*k me over. Knowing Frankie's character, I found this as no surprise. He said he can't pick up from the game because Frankie had someone watching him. So again, with no bargaining power, I sat back down and waited, hoping he'd run up his stack and not go broke.
At around 9pm, he had his stack up to ~$7500 so I leaned over to him and said we had to do something. He threw me five $100 chips and said "take that for now. I'm picking up soon." I took it as an act of good faith and felt I may actually get the rest of my money now.
Well at 10:15pm he racked up his chips and picked up from the game without saying a word to me. I walked over near the poker room desk and waited until he came back from the cage. When he came back he told me he can't pay me anything at all because Frankie doesn't want to give me any money. After a long argument, I told him to forget it. I told him he doesn't owe me anything. He screwed me over for $2000. Congrats to him.
I walked over to Frankie's 5/10nl table, stood next to it and said "You don't owe me $2000 and neither does your friend. I'm done with both of you. You guys ran a good scam screwing me over. You can angle-shoot some poor kid out a 50k pot in the tournament today and then you refuse to play me $2000 that is rightfully mine. You can also cheat and collude in the 10/20nl game like I caught you doing 2 months ago. You can do all of that but right now I'm done with both of guys. You don't owe me anything."
He replied in front of the whole table and everyone else watching, "You know what I told him to do? I told him to f*k you over! I told him not give you a f*king cent. I told him to to f*k ya! How you like that?"
I didn't reply. I walked away from the table, ready to get my chips and leave when Villian in this whole ordeal came up to me and started yelling at me. He got right in my personal space, yelling obscenities at me, pointing his finger in my face. I didn't raise my voice or a finger at him. A minute later, security jumped in and separated us. I immediately walked over to the now-empty 10/20nl table and counted and racked up my chips.
A security officer approached me a few minutes later asking to go talk to his boss. I then sat down with 2 security supervisors who asked me to "start from the beginning." So I did. I retold the story 2 times, exactly how it happened. I tried not to forget a single thing. I told the story as accurately as possible and didn't embellish a single detail because I certainly didn't have to. How could I possibly be at fault? During my discussion with them, they kept asking me to describe the equity pot situation again. So I did. Two different times she said "you do understand that foxwoods doesn't allow these types of deals don't you." Each time I said "Yes I know but the floorman allowed us to do it on the side. Foxwoods didn't do the equity chop. We did it ourselves on the side because the floor manager told us we could do it that way."
After we were done discussing it, she said "This is what's going to happen. Because you did this equity chop and knowingly broke one of foxwoods rules, you are going to be banned permanently from foxwoods." I pleaded but obv to no avail. She took me aside and took my picture. She escorted me over the cage and my box so I could empty it. She then had a security officer escort me through the poker room and all the way over to the hotel where my bags were and out to valet. I had to sign documents stating that I won't come onto foxwoods property ever again or I'll be arrested. It was perhaps the most humiliating and unjust thing that has ever happened to me.
Over the past few days I've been working on gathering up information for a letter I am writing to get reinstated. The security supervisor told me it could be only 2 or 3 weeks. But I've heard it could be 6 months or more before I'm reinstated. I know of someone who was reinstated after 3 years. I'm writing that letter and also reevaluation my career options as well. I won't leave poker that's for sure. But I may be forced to go back to playing the back-room games around boston and play online once again.
Cliff notes: Don't make equity chops at foxwoods.
later,
HEK
12-25-2008
, 02:37 AM
12-25-2008
, 02:38 AM
12-25-2008
, 02:46 AM
12-25-2008
, 02:53 AM
12-25-2008
, 03:20 AM
12-25-2008
, 03:54 AM
12-25-2008
, 04:20 AM
12-25-2008
, 04:48 AM
lol looking forward to slowroll him. Also well done, on keeping calm when that dickbag followed you and called you names. you have better tilt control then me hehe.
