I mostly don't read it.

I'm fairly amused though why you think's he doing us all a great favor by posting bad maths in exceedingly tedious ways.

To some extent but it's far less reasonable to expect people to ignore personal attacks.

Also it's a very different thing when some people are trying to 'run off' posters rather than ignore them.

By "run off" I meant, proven wrong over and over so took ball and went home.

It's not just about you who mostly doesn't read his stuff anyway. Addressing the content is great, ignoring it is fine. Personal abuse and trolling is a bad thing when it goes beyond a bit of fun.

That's my view anyway. Obviously some disagree.

There's always the ignore button if he really can't help himself.

I turned the statement around because that's the fast way to respond, but it really is much deeper than that. If we were all just ignoring everyone's posts, then this place really wouldn't be much more than a bunch of blogs lumped together.

So the question comes down to this: What is a fair expectation of Masque as a poster? Do we simply "accept him for who he is*" and just say that any rambling he wants to engage in is perfectly acceptable without challenge? (* Assuming that this is what we mean by this phrase.) Or should we have some expectation that he would make an attempt to post in a way to encourage others to participate in the conversation with him?

(And yes, the same can be asked of me, and Bruce, and anyone else.)

I don't mind being the lightning rod for this conversation. It's absolutely true that I acted in a way to attempt to enact a change in his posting habits. I have been very explicit about this. And I even gave him specific ideas for him to try to implement these changes, none of which are particularly controversial:

1) Organize your thoughts before posting
2) Try to post more concisely
3) Try to reply to the ideas in the thread instead of chasing down your own tangents

He was very clear that he was not going to attempt to enact any of these. I still continued to interact with him and his ideas, but I also kept his posting habits as part of the conversation, and I did make it a point to remind him that he wasn't doing those things. And yes, that includes mocking him for his continued poor posting.

Edit:

My goal was not to run him off. My goal was for him to change his posting style so that he would be a better poster. But that he chose to run off also seems like an acceptable outcome.

I disagree that it's reasonable to expect posters to just ignore personal attacks. It is reasonable to expect them to ignore stuff they dont find interesting.

It wont just become a series of personal blogs because lots of posters dont want to ignore what others are saying. Most of us come here to socialise and discuss content.

Getting people to post better is a worthwhile goal but that's a far cry from thinking it's best they change or leave. That's an intolerance which I think is bad unless it's serious enough to be a modding issue. I'll argue against that intolerance but I'd still rather you stayed here being intolerant than left

Right. And Neither of these outcomes are actually encouraged by Masque's walls of text.

I never claimed that this was an either-or situation. He could well have just continued on his merry way. That would also have been acceptable.*

I never asked him to leave. He was the one who threw down his own ultimatum.

Edit: * I believe that he is responsible for his own decisions about his posting. Whether he stays, improves, gets worse, or leaves, those are all his decisions. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't have the power to make him do any of those things. He makes his own decisions and is responsible for his own actions.

We're all responsible for our own actions and decisions.

However we are not independent of each others actions and decisions. We interact via an environment which both informs those actions/decisions and is shaped by those actions/decisions.

Yes. And I've been very clear on what my aspirations were for the impact of my statements. I believe that they were all reasonable and actionable suggestions.

But it was his choice to play the ultimatum game, and his choice to walk away.

and I hope I've been clear on my views. We all made our choices too and they are generally dependant on each others choices.

This story may or may not be relevant to this thread.

I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin. One day a factory was built in our town. Locals rejoiced for the jobs and other benefits that accrued.

However, it soon became clear that the factory was an egregious polluter that dumped its waste into our beloved local river. Local officials beseeched the factory owners to please stop polluting our river.

The factory owners said that the officials were making too much of a little pollution and that they should be glad that the factory was in their town providing so many jobs.

After a protracted stalemate, a local environmental group began picketing the factory. Factory workers and management were annoyed by the picketers each morning they arrived at work.

After another protracted stalemate, factory owners said that they would close down the factory if the picketing did not end. The picketers did not go away. If anything they became even more strident.

In less than a year, the factory closed down.

Many people in the town blamed the picketers.

Well you did claim to be a sociopath back when you were confronted about this in SMP a few months back and you weren't shy about announcing your intentions to remain persistent. Whatever you want call it, I say it was clearly trolling and you definitely weren't a victim.

Your basic premise is faulty in that you don't have and can never get jurisdiction over the object you sought to change. You started the game out of bounds, never made it onto a legal playing field, and didn't get consent of the other players before involving them. This doesn't add up to a win.

Indeed. It was never something I could force him to do. But I believe I was within the boundaries that were set to confront him on his posting patterns. Do you disagree? If so, you should talk to Zeno about it. He's the one who decides when things are out of bounds, not you.

I never said it was a win. But I don't exactly count it as a loss, either.

You'll have to quote me on that, because I do not recall making such a claim. I searched my name and "sociopath" and came up with two posts:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...2&postcount=21

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3&postcount=27

Edit: I forgot about that thread. It contains statements from Masque like this one:

And I think I found the post you had in mind.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&postcount=80

To that, I merely say "LOL -- Okay."

Context: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=77

Seems like he actually won.

This is a big part of the problem: "Who he is" is just an incorrect concept. You used to **** your diaper. Did you reject potty training because ****ting in your diaper was "who you were"?

People can and do have the capacity for change.* 99% of the criticism leveled at people is meant to cause a change in behavior. Not changing due to normal social pressure is just plain missing out on the majority of living as a social animal. And, inevitably, those who don't react in a somewhat normal way when faced with social criticism will get more social criticism because it is frustrating as **** all for everyone else.

To put it more simply, if most people you encounter react to you negatively the problem is either how you are currently acting or that it is everyone else. If you believe it is the second, you are an idiot** (or perhaps should live on a deserted island).

*Once upon a time I was an absolutely horrific writer. I ended up writing for a newspaper for a bit.

**meant in the medical terminology sort of way.

I'm not.

Masque quit posting on his own volition; after being confronted in a very blunt manner about the content, verbosity, and style of his postings. This fundamental and obvious flaw in his postings and discussions to inform and interact with the SMP community had been mentioned before and numerous previous attempts by his friends on the forum and the mod to get him to modify his style went unheeded. It detracted from, to a large degree, the amount of positive contribution he did have.

This confrontation (specifically with Aaron) and outcome and aftermath were close to inevitable and it was easily predictable, like viewing the head on collision of two trains on the same track from a great distance.

This is not an outcome that I personally relish. It is disappointing that he could not, apparently, mature enough over the years and develop the thick skin and social skills required for spirited public debate, critique, and nasty knocks that his posting style invited, or understand the need for modification of his writing and posting. He is obviously still welcome to post. If he chooses not to and instead devotes more time to his important studies, then that is perhaps a positive outcome of all this turmoil.

Good opportunity here to make a serious plug for the advancement of science and math:

Join-AAAS

And for our friends across the pond:

The Royal Society

And for the Math types:

Mathmatical Association of America

Personal responsibility for actions and decisions does rather fall down when there are 2 of you.

Lots of mods here

Can any advise if Jbrochu has been permabanned or is it just a temp?

If the former can clemency be considered?

7 days temp.