Where We're Coming From - About the Forums

**Mason Malmuth** · 04-11-2008, 06:35 PM

Hi Everyone:

I'm going to try to give a fuller explanation as to where we are coming from regarding Gary Wise/Never Win Poker. But first, I want to note that we are having some private conversations behind the scenes, and by putting this explanation here it will hurt our private efforts.

First off, there are groups and politicians out there that are very anti-gambling and are working hard to disrupt our industry. But there's more to it than just that, part of their argument is that gambling is a cancer that leads to a host of other evils such as pornography, drugs, prostitution, general hate, and who knows what else which have the effect of destroying the family.

We at Two Plus Two don't agree that playing poker does this, and we also are of the opinion that even though there are a relatively small number of problem gamblers, gambling in general is a form of entertainment that many people like to participate in and only disposable money gets budgeted for it.

So on Two Plus Two, we're very aware of the anti-gambling argument that gambling leads to many other evils and destroys the family, and that's part of the reason why we have certain restrictions in place. (In fact, one of our major advertisers now requires that we sign a document stating that things like pornography are not allowed on www.twoplustwo.com.) We want to make sure that nothing on our site can lead to the argument that poker/gambling is some sort of societal ill that will destroy the underlining fabric of our society.

Now this brings us to Never Win Poker. It's our opinion that it is simply a ticking time bomb that has the potential to damage our whole industry. We have had private conversations with a representative of Poker News who is the majority owner of Never Win Poker, and this person agrees with us and he has assured that work is being done to solve this problem.

We have also made it clear on www.twoplustwo.com that the principles of Never Win Poker are no longer welcome here for these reasons. Furthermore, in a private conversation with Gary Wise a couple of weeks ago, we tried to make this point clear to him as well, but he refused to listen to what we said and thus our conversation did not last very long.

We also have no objection to any Two Plus Two member looking at another site, or being critical of our policies. We do object, and object strongly, to anyone who is some sort of public figure in poker, and Wise does qualify here, to publicly supporting what we believe will eventually severely damage our industry.

Let me put it another way. I believe if you were to talk to a top executive from any of the major Internet poker sites, they would tell you that the vast majority of participants in their games do so for entertainment, and that playing poker for these people is good wholesome fun. They would also point out that the expense of playing poker on their site is very minimal for the vast majority of their customers -- an amount similar to going to a movie or dinner in a nice restaurant. The idea that playing poker on the Internet can lead to all sorts of other perceived (by some) evils is something they would scoff at as being ridiculous. And of course we agree.

But this brings us back to Never Win Poker. The potential damage that this site can do to all of us is again, in our opinion, severe, and we believe it needs to be cleaned up. Once that is done, we will re-instate Wise, Witteles (aka known as Dan Druff), etc. Wise can also be re-instated by disassociating himself with the principles of NWP.

Best wishes,
Mason

Oski · 04-11-2008, 06:42 PM

If all you say is true, why is it necessary to hide the few bad apples? A forum full of people who fit your paradigm should easily be able to handle this problem.

apefish · 04-11-2008, 06:52 PM

cliffsnotes: Help us Tony G Kenobi, you're our only hope.

Das Budrick · 04-11-2008, 06:52 PM

Oski you definitely should've just said "first"

newhizzle · 04-11-2008, 06:56 PM

hi mason,

im not sure if you are aware that gary has pretty much nothing to do with nwp whatsoever and he probably has todd on his think-tank simply because he is a smart guy who can add some valuable content and ideas

i see where you are coming from with your argument, but i really dont think any of this is at all relevant to the issue at hand honestly

neverwin poker is simply a free public uncensored forum and is probably similar to uncensored forums that have nothing to do with gambling, im not muhc of an internet nerd so i wouldnt know but i think it is more representative of internet nerds than of pokerplayers most of the posters there probably dont even play much poker

micon has compared it to playing halo 3 on xbox live and said you will probably here the same **** on there as you will on nwp and i personally dont think the site is viewed as a representitave of the gambling industry at all, i guess you could also say that video games are leading society down the same path as gambling if this is how you view it

but anyway, i know why you have problems with micon, and they are understandable, you have told me your reasoning behind banning druff, i dont agree with it, but whatever thats fine, gary, as far as i can tell does not endorse neverwinpoker in any way, he never even posted there until you banned him from 2+2, and he has even said that he does not approve of some of the things posted there, all he did was hire an intellegent oppinionated guy to participate in his think tank, probably not even considering that he had anything to do with nwp when he did so so in my oppinion all of your argument here is pretty irrelevant and really dosent hold much weight

i know you have some personal issues with gary, but really instead of coming up with reasons for banning him that are completely irrelevant, maybe you should just say that, your points here really have nothing to do with anything in my oppinion and are really not helping your public image

i am not trying to bash you or endorse nwp or anything im just telling you what this looks like to the outside eye

edit: also, i just spoke with gary and he is planning on posting a public response to this matter on his site on monday, hoe thats not considered "spam" but he dosent have a forum to defend himself here, and people should probably be able to hear his oppinions as well

edit2: i also had this whole reply typed up before i talked to gary he just happened to im me right as i was posting it, so want to make it clear that these are my statements not his

best wishes,
mark

Das Budrick · 04-11-2008, 06:57 PM

also I've read it and I fully agree with everything said.

bronx bomber · 04-11-2008, 07:01 PM

Mason, I am assuming that you are talking about Tony G and NWP- if he agrees with you why doesn't he just shut it down.........or clean it up? I noticed he took his picture down from their banner, I guess he is ashamed.
On another note, if Gary was banned because of his invitation to Todd to participate in his "Think Tank" and you consider that "support", why wouldn't you ban all the members of the "Tank", ie JMAN 28, Shaniac, etc, applying the same logic?
Finally, I disagree with your decision to ban Gary, but it is your site and you can do as you please. I can understand your stance in Todds case, but as another poster pointed out, this whole "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" thing is a slippery slope and I wonder when it will end.

LeapFrog · 04-11-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

Hi Everyone:
First off, there are groups and politicians out there that are very anti-gambling and are working hard to disrupt our industry. But there's more to it than just that, part of their argument is that gambling is a cancer that leads to a host of other evils such as pornography, drugs, prostitution, general hate, and who knows what else which have the effect of destroying the family.

We at Two Plus Two don't agree that playing poker does this, and we also are of the opinion that even though there are a relatively small number of problem gamblers, gambling in general is a form of entertainment that many people like to participate in and only disposable money gets budgeted for it.

So on Two Plus Two, we're very aware of the anti-gambling argument that gambling leads to many other evils and destroys the family, and that's part of the reason why we have certain restrictions in place. (In fact, one of our major advertisers now requires that we sign a document stating that things like pornography are not allowed on www.twoplustwo.com.) We want to make sure that nothing on our site can lead to the argument that poker/gambling is some sort of societal ill that will destroy the underlining fabric of our society.

Mason,

Pretty much every day I come to 2+2 I see links to 'pornography' (and occasionally inline pictures with nipples that are not deleted), discussions about all kinds of drugs (weed, ecstasy, mdma, cocaine, abuse of prescription drugs, etc, etc), discussions of prostitution (occasionally links to escort sites) , and lets not forget the general misogynistic hate that pervades NVG (for example) -- just check out any of the Annette threads. NVG is being cleaned up a bit, but for how long was it out of control?

First off, let me say that I am not a fan of censorship and have absolutely no problem with these things being discussed on 2+2. If I have a problem with a subject I simply won't open/read that thread.

2+2 is obviously a far cry from NWP but please, lets not pretend that this is a 'family' website dedicated to some good ole fashioned poker fun and tasty cookie recipes. Take care when getting off your high horse because its way way up there.

**Ryan Beal** · 04-11-2008, 07:09 PM

Porn links haven't been allowed for quite some time. If you see any please report them to us. I suspect why you might say this is that there's a pretty fuzzy line between porn and just being NSFW.

LeapFrog · 04-11-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Beal

Porn links haven't been allowed for quite some time. If you see any please report them to us.

well 'pornography' is a bit of a gray area. There are frequently links to pictures of naked women. Whether this qualifies or not I can't say. I'm sure some would consider it pornography.