On locking thread/banning etc...
ty (for your attempts not necessarily for leaving i mean) u2!
posting so Adyo can quote me.
Some of you are great tho!
7 days 1 thread in mttsng. Title: Official players mttsng cooperative discussion thread:
We want this thread to serve a specific purpose, however its not my place to specifically identify what that is (rather the players are to navigate collectively). But I do want to make a few suggestions in order to build/stoke the fire so to speak. Once things get rolling, I expect to not only get out of the way, but to be upstaged by many other greater thinkers on this specific aspect of the economy of the game.
But I have come to an certain understanding and it is quite difficult to share in a few sentences. But it involves a cooperative effort and therefore this is what this thread is to be. I will give a 'poker' related cliffs to the above link, but it would definitely help the process if anyone interested in engaging in cooperative dialogue might take the time to read the paper on above. It is written someone who it seems was highly praised by Einstein, and although it has some esoteric higher level mathematical meaning, on a fundamental it perfectly spells out what this thread is to be.
But if you don't feel like reading it just please understand this: We mean this thread to be a cooperative discussion on making good changes for the game. And we define a good change by one that is favourable to the entire player community, as that is fundamentally all we are.
We also want to use this thread to cooperatively dispel some myths we might have on the game in a mathematical fashion, and we are therefore going to have to rely on the most creative and mathematically adept players to help us do so. What this means is as time goes by players are going to awaken to new understandings as they shed some of the old myths they collectively shared on the game. And the reason I point this out is you cannot simply jump into the end of the thread, lest we suffer from the same ignorance we are trying to cure ourselves of. So please, if you wish to participate in a meaningful manner, do take the time to read the collective posts from the collective community in this thread.
I'm not going to talk about how we should act and treat each other and stuff like that. The same forum rules should apply here, and I see no reason for myself, alone, to try and lay down any extras.
So this is the simple OP, I have a few specific details to discuss to start out, and then we might might quickly see we can make some significant and tangible cooperative change in which ALL players regs and recs alike gain.
7 days 1 thread in mttsng. Title: Official players mttsng cooperative discussion thread:
We want this thread to serve a specific purpose, however its not my place to specifically identify what that is (rather the players are to navigate collectively). But I do want to make a few suggestions in order to build/stoke the fire so to speak. Once things get rolling, I expect to not only get out of the way, but to be upstaged by many other greater thinkers on this specific aspect of the economy of the game.
But I have come to an certain understanding and it is quite difficult to share in a few sentences. But it involves a cooperative effort and therefore this is what this thread is to be. I will give a 'poker' related cliffs to the above link, but it would definitely help the process if anyone interested in engaging in cooperative dialogue might take the time to read the paper on above. It is written someone who it seems was highly praised by Einstein, and although it has some esoteric higher level mathematical meaning, on a fundamental it perfectly spells out what this thread is to be.
But if you don't feel like reading it just please understand this: We mean this thread to be a cooperative discussion on making good changes for the game. And we define a good change by one that is favourable to the entire player community, as that is fundamentally all we are.
We also want to use this thread to cooperatively dispel some myths we might have on the game in a mathematical fashion, and we are therefore going to have to rely on the most creative and mathematically adept players to help us do so. What this means is as time goes by players are going to awaken to new understandings as they shed some of the old myths they collectively shared on the game. And the reason I point this out is you cannot simply jump into the end of the thread, lest we suffer from the same ignorance we are trying to cure ourselves of. So please, if you wish to participate in a meaningful manner, do take the time to read the collective posts from the collective community in this thread.
I'm not going to talk about how we should act and treat each other and stuff like that. The same forum rules should apply here, and I see no reason for myself, alone, to try and lay down any extras.
So this is the simple OP, I have a few specific details to discuss to start out, and then we might might quickly see we can make some significant and tangible cooperative change in which ALL players regs and recs alike gain.
Ban this idiot. Ip please.
Well one would think first they would give me some ultimatums of what not to do anymore, even if it was a general things like "don't post".
On the other hand, your a mod and all i want is the OP above your post as a thread for 7 days, and I'll voluntarily take an ip ban if it doesn't bring significant change.
But whatever, it wouldn't take much at this point to convince me to not come back, obv i don't fit in.
On the other hand, your a mod and all i want is the OP above your post as a thread for 7 days, and I'll voluntarily take an ip ban if it doesn't bring significant change.
But whatever, it wouldn't take much at this point to convince me to not come back, obv i don't fit in.
What are some of these myths of which you speak? You sound like you're selling a get rich quick scheme where you don't give any detail where you dont' give out any info until someone pays for the conference.
Lee
I want you to understand something please, with your sincerest of intentions. What you point out here is what I want to point out to the players. I want to show them mathematically, to each solution that has been proposed, that they players are asking for things that stars will not grant. The players want to tell me Im stupid because its the only things we can ask for and the only way to do it, and I want them to first admit this is not possible, and ONLY EVER THEN can we discuss a solution.
Only then can there be an intelligent discussion on the merits of your suggestions.
Thank you.
You want to tell me poker is set at the market equilibrium, I want to show you why it is bull**** and keynsian thinking that nash dispelled in his paper ideal money. The markets are not at an equilibrium because 2 + 2 is holding the players hostage (perhaps unknowingly) in the negotiation process.
I had no idea that this site had so much power!!
Lee
With snippages for brevity.
So when I say good players make +ev changes, we are talking for both the current game and the longevity of it. Makes 100% sense right, that a smart person would not want to ruin the game.
Now I admit we are functioning on the assumption that regs are winning players that make +ev decisions, and recs are losing players that play purely for the enjoyment. But sometimes adding an assumption actually clarifies things without necessarily having its own ground.
So when I say good players make +ev changes, we are talking for both the current game and the longevity of it. Makes 100% sense right, that a smart person would not want to ruin the game.
Now I admit we are functioning on the assumption that regs are winning players that make +ev decisions, and recs are losing players that play purely for the enjoyment. But sometimes adding an assumption actually clarifies things without necessarily having its own ground.
If you don't realize that the intelligent poker player wants decisions that are good for the entire community, then you are one of those players that doesn't understand. We have been functioning too long as a community that pretends we can not identify the posters that will help this game. We pretend this on the tables fine, but publicly certain playesr will be seen to have a TRUE and INTELLIGENT intent for the overall morality and integrity of the game as laid out in my link. And what we mean by that is ALL players should covet a fair and profitable game, that is profitable to regs, where regs are those that work hard for what they are given, and what they are given is money in exchange for entertainment.
The problem we are having, is that too many bad players, and i really mean "bad players" (adyo definition) have been running around suggesting we must run a game that tricks degenerate gamblers, rather than running a game that attracts those that are looking for entertainment.
The problem we are having, is that too many bad players, and i really mean "bad players" (adyo definition) have been running around suggesting we must run a game that tricks degenerate gamblers, rather than running a game that attracts those that are looking for entertainment.
One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.
More importantly, though, are your statements regarding what intelligent poker players want. Who are you, or anyone, to decide what everyone's wants and needs are? Not everyone wants the same things, and even if - as you seem to be arguing - intelligent poker players are in this for the money, not all such players go about seeking profits the same way. Or in the same type of games.
One size definitely does NOT fit all here!!
So if we can mathematically show that a certain suggestion is not good for the game, then it stands to reason....
Lee
Best pissing contest in a long time . Op showing great stamina though he is long winded, condescending and I could see how his style wouldn't convince people to side with him even if he was right.
Don't shoot the messenger
So there's like a truly mathematical zero chance that this Adyo and Wolfske guy are different people, right?
I'm sure Tyler has an even better list of filled checkboxes than I do.
Hey Adyo, I don't know who you are. I don't know your past work. I don't know other people's opinions of you. From this thread based on your posts alone, I think you have some sort of disorder like narcissism that's causing you to think that you are somehow above criticism because everyone else just isn't smart enough to be on your level.
Of course, whether this is true or not is irrelevant to the real discussion you're trying to have. I just wanted to point out that the resistance you're receiving is not solely based on people's past knowledge of who you are and your posting history...that stuff can be gleamed just from this thread alone. I don't want to derail from the actual discussion though:
When you run your own company and have sole control over all decisions, then you can mold your model to benefit the minority of people that use your product. Those "smart people" that share a certain goal will greatly enjoy it, while the "recreational people" will rather use a product that caters to their wants and needs. Pokerstars doesn't want to make changes that benefit the few and presumably hurt the many. I don't know that this would be the effect of your ideas, but when you're sitting over there being all cryptic about the changes you'd like to implement instead of just telling us what they are, you're not helping your case any. Maybe you DO have some awesome ideas that would be beneficial to EVERYONE. I don't know, but I don't know because you haven't shed any light on it, not because I'm too stupid to understand.
Side note on being too stupid to understand, by the way. I feel like the end of this discussion when/if you finally make the reveal of your idea is going to be akin to how someone says they have a way to beat roulette and, after a long thread of arguing and claims of "you're just not smart enough to see it how I see it", we find out the guy is onto some form of Martingale. Everyone throws their arms up in the air in disgust like "OMG I wasted to much time on THIS??"
So let's hear your idea. I'm sure it's well thought out. I'd hate to never get to hear it because you assume everyone is too stupid to understand it.
I'm sure Tyler has an even better list of filled checkboxes than I do.
Hey Adyo, I don't know who you are. I don't know your past work. I don't know other people's opinions of you. From this thread based on your posts alone, I think you have some sort of disorder like narcissism that's causing you to think that you are somehow above criticism because everyone else just isn't smart enough to be on your level.
Of course, whether this is true or not is irrelevant to the real discussion you're trying to have. I just wanted to point out that the resistance you're receiving is not solely based on people's past knowledge of who you are and your posting history...that stuff can be gleamed just from this thread alone. I don't want to derail from the actual discussion though:
When you run your own company and have sole control over all decisions, then you can mold your model to benefit the minority of people that use your product. Those "smart people" that share a certain goal will greatly enjoy it, while the "recreational people" will rather use a product that caters to their wants and needs. Pokerstars doesn't want to make changes that benefit the few and presumably hurt the many. I don't know that this would be the effect of your ideas, but when you're sitting over there being all cryptic about the changes you'd like to implement instead of just telling us what they are, you're not helping your case any. Maybe you DO have some awesome ideas that would be beneficial to EVERYONE. I don't know, but I don't know because you haven't shed any light on it, not because I'm too stupid to understand.
Side note on being too stupid to understand, by the way. I feel like the end of this discussion when/if you finally make the reveal of your idea is going to be akin to how someone says they have a way to beat roulette and, after a long thread of arguing and claims of "you're just not smart enough to see it how I see it", we find out the guy is onto some form of Martingale. Everyone throws their arms up in the air in disgust like "OMG I wasted to much time on THIS??"
So let's hear your idea. I'm sure it's well thought out. I'd hate to never get to hear it because you assume everyone is too stupid to understand it.
Tbh I don't think you really read my posts? (not an accusation, it's just a feeling I get)
It's not about hurting the many and benefiting the few .. that's MY whole point. Some changes were made due to the MTTSNG thread because 1 person demanded it and even while most people didn't want it to happen .. still it did happen because it led to recs losing les in the long time (they pbb don't care) and regs winning less (they prob do care). I don't know many people that like the 27 place payout and I'm not even sure if recs like it because the first prize is lower and stuff.
The thing I suggested was a thread in wich everyone can discuss things and where we can make decisions that are supported before they are implemented so that it cannot hurt the many. So a large group in the thread has a shared opinion (this may be a group of recs also) and there is 1 person that can post this message in the pokerstars mttsng thread.
If you do not agree with my point of view I'd like to know why. But it's not fair that you tell me I'm the same person as Adyo while my opinion is totally different and while you didn't say anything that refutes my opinion (tbh you actually said things that just support my opinion).
I also don't hope this post sounds agressive because I feel I can have a good discussion with you about this. You actually used arguments in your post
Originally Posted by 180reg View Post
This guy claimed i didn't know maths and hadn't done my research and can eat a big fat banhammer **** imo
This guy claimed i didn't know maths and hadn't done my research and can eat a big fat banhammer **** imo
For those of us who never read the original threads, and aren't going to spend the time doing so now - would you PLEASE be so kind as to tell us what the proposals you want to make are? And show them mathematically? You can do this right here, in this thread, for starters.
Only then can there be an intelligent discussion on the merits of your suggestions.
Thank you.
Only then can there be an intelligent discussion on the merits of your suggestions.
Thank you.
This is what you want to see, it an example of what I want to straighten out and there are more. Might you please just come back and say "fair enough, i asked for a factual tangible example, and you have given one."
Wait, wha???? 2+2 controls the market equilibrium of poker? Or Pokerstars???
I had no idea that this site had so much power!!
Lee
I had no idea that this site had so much power!!
Lee
Really? Where is it written that all regs are profitable players? I for one know a lot of regs who regularly lose money at poker. And I know some recreational players who are winners at the game (in fact, one of the biggest winners I know is a recreational player.)
We are talking about their WANTS and a FUNDAMENTAL basic, we have said 'let us view RECS in the light of wanting ENTERTAINMENT, and let us view REG in the light of wanting INCOME" Just for the purpose of understanding something I wish to point out. I have already also pointed out the obviousness that recs like money too, and regs like entertainment, and that the ideal player wants both.
and this is why we do this because you say you have a rec friend that wins tons of money. We don't call that income tho do we? Winnings in this sense is not income for the purpose of analyzing the economy of poker. If we don't straighten this out we start to double account and double speak about things in relation to each other (communicating).
One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.
More importantly, though, are your statements regarding what intelligent poker players want. Who are you, or anyone, to decide what everyone's wants and needs are? Not everyone wants the same things, and even if - as you seem to be arguing - intelligent poker players are in this for the money, not all such players go about seeking profits the same way. Or in the same type of games.
One size definitely does NOT fit all here!!
Actually, while I agree with most of what Lattimer says here, I will point out that perhaps making the game more fun (even if lessening the EV from a purely immediate profit standpoint) might not only be better for the game, but more profitable for the those making money at it. Please read what Mike Caro and others have to say on this subject for a more detailed analysis.
Cliffs!
Here is the problem http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...read-1166623/:
Bad player: hey stars can you make a change to the game that costs players money?
Good player: hey stars can you make a change to the game that brings money to the players?
Stars: Dear players we have made a change that effects you in a negative way.
Good players: we didn't want that change, why are you doing things we don't want?
Stars: You all asked for it though (quotes bad player) Bad player: hey stars can you make a change to the game that costs players money?
Good player: hey stars can you make a change to the game that brings money to the players?
Stars: Dear players we have made a change that effects you in a negative way.
Good players: we didn't want that change, why are you doing things we don't want?
Stars: You all asked for it though (quotes bad player) Bad player: hey stars can you make a change to the game that costs players money?
I am asking for one small logistical change, in that in the above thread we only use one account to make proposals to stars, and we discuss everything in another, for the specific purpose that stars cannot assert that the players asked for an idea that they did not. *I am not suggesting this will stop stars from adopting ideas players do not want.
Here is the solution, player will hold their discussions in this thread, and use 1 single dummy (impartial player) account to bring their ideas forth (Title: Official players mttsng cooperative discussion thread):
We want this thread to serve a specific purpose, however its not my place to specifically identify what that is (rather the players are to navigate collectively). But I do want to make a few suggestions in order to build/stoke the fire so to speak. Once things get rolling, I expect to not only get out of the way, but to be upstaged by many other greater thinkers on this specific aspect of the economy of the game.
But I have come to an certain understanding and it is quite difficult to share in a few sentences. But it involves a cooperative effort and therefore this is what this thread is to be. I will give a 'poker' related cliffs to the above link, but it would definitely help the process if anyone interested in engaging in cooperative dialogue might take the time to read the paper on above. It is written someone who it seems was highly praised by Einstein, and although it has some esoteric higher level mathematical meaning, on a fundamental it perfectly spells out what this thread is to be.
But if you don't feel like reading it just please understand this: We mean this thread to be a cooperative discussion on making good changes for the game. And we define a good change by one that is favourable to the entire player community, as that is fundamentally all we are.
We also want to use this thread to cooperatively dispel some myths we might have on the game in a mathematical fashion, and we are therefore going to have to rely on the most creative and mathematically adept players to help us do so. What this means is as time goes by players are going to awaken to new understandings as they shed some of the old myths they collectively shared on the game. And the reason I point this out is you cannot simply jump into the end of the thread, lest we suffer from the same ignorance we are trying to cure ourselves of. So please, if you wish to participate in a meaningful manner, do take the time to read the collective posts from the collective community in this thread.
I'm not going to talk about how we should act and treat each other and stuff like that. The same forum rules should apply here, and I see no reason for myself, alone, to try and lay down any extras.
So this is the simple OP, I have a few specific details to discuss to start out, and then we might might quickly see we can make some significant and tangible cooperative change in which ALL players regs and recs alike gain.
Here is an example of what we wish to change, how we might do it, and the type of math involved:
Originally Posted by BurnzDK View Post
Hey Guys I dont know if this thread should go here or not - so excuse me if its placed in the wrong forum
The thing is I am a midstakes grinder abi~30-35ish. I want to move up the stakes and have considered getting a coach (for the first time in my carrer). I have a contact with a coach which is considered among one of the best coaches in my country. I respect his game a lot and he has proven results both coaching and playingwise. Usually he charges 150-200$/h but that unfortunately is too much out of my current bankroll to take out to coaching - and I really dont want to jump much lower than now since I am very comfortable at this level.
Then he suggested that he could coach me for a part of my profit. Since I never done stuff like this before i have no clue how to decide what is fair. Fwiw I dont think he ever did a deal like this before either so we are both on new ground here.
Do you have any suggestions for how to find a solution that is fair for both parties? All inputs are highly appreciated
Hey Guys I dont know if this thread should go here or not - so excuse me if its placed in the wrong forum
The thing is I am a midstakes grinder abi~30-35ish. I want to move up the stakes and have considered getting a coach (for the first time in my carrer). I have a contact with a coach which is considered among one of the best coaches in my country. I respect his game a lot and he has proven results both coaching and playingwise. Usually he charges 150-200$/h but that unfortunately is too much out of my current bankroll to take out to coaching - and I really dont want to jump much lower than now since I am very comfortable at this level.
Then he suggested that he could coach me for a part of my profit. Since I never done stuff like this before i have no clue how to decide what is fair. Fwiw I dont think he ever did a deal like this before either so we are both on new ground here.
Do you have any suggestions for how to find a solution that is fair for both parties? All inputs are highly appreciated
Originally Posted by 180Reg View Post
Work out how many hours you think he will coach you per month
Find out your avg profit per month (as an estimate based on games played, avg bi and roi).
say he coaches you 10 hours a month, at 150 an hour, thats 1.5k coaching fees approx.
if you profit 6k a month then its 1.5k/6k so split would be 25/75 in your favour
The fact you can have losing months, and he still coaches could change the above I guess, also, id advise to have proper coaching times set in place, you don't want to be in the position that your going good and you don't recieve coaching.
That was all just a guess and i may be completely wrong but hope it helps
Work out how many hours you think he will coach you per month
Find out your avg profit per month (as an estimate based on games played, avg bi and roi).
say he coaches you 10 hours a month, at 150 an hour, thats 1.5k coaching fees approx.
if you profit 6k a month then its 1.5k/6k so split would be 25/75 in your favour
The fact you can have losing months, and he still coaches could change the above I guess, also, id advise to have proper coaching times set in place, you don't want to be in the position that your going good and you don't recieve coaching.
That was all just a guess and i may be completely wrong but hope it helps
Originally Posted by Adyo View Post
Originally Posted by 180Reg View Post
Find out your avg profit per month (as an estimate based on games played, avg bi and roi).
This is what the players need to discuss, we are giving this answer, but if we did the math we would realize we don't have enough information to get an accurate answer like you are suggesting.
We have to look at the variance and understand what kind of sample sizes are needed.
Since you are a 180 reg (180s are a lot easier to study in this light) and since any 180 player that has looked at this and actually gone through all the numbers...we can assume you haven't actually spent time looking into what you are suggesting cause if did you would know that not even 180s will produce what you are suggesting with a decent confidence rate.
The OP plays MTTS which means they have this issue even further.
As for the rest of it, and OP's questions, I might not have the answers, or correct ones
Originally Posted by 180Reg View Post
Find out your avg profit per month (as an estimate based on games played, avg bi and roi).
This is what the players need to discuss, we are giving this answer, but if we did the math we would realize we don't have enough information to get an accurate answer like you are suggesting.
We have to look at the variance and understand what kind of sample sizes are needed.
Since you are a 180 reg (180s are a lot easier to study in this light) and since any 180 player that has looked at this and actually gone through all the numbers...we can assume you haven't actually spent time looking into what you are suggesting cause if did you would know that not even 180s will produce what you are suggesting with a decent confidence rate.
The OP plays MTTS which means they have this issue even further.
As for the rest of it, and OP's questions, I might not have the answers, or correct ones
Here is what players that don't understand say:
Originally Posted by 180reg View Post
This guy claimed i didn't know maths and hadn't done my research and can eat a big fat banhammer **** imo
This guy claimed i didn't know maths and hadn't done my research and can eat a big fat banhammer **** imo
good golly ^^^^^
Adyo-
If you can't do the math yourself, how do you know you are right?
If you can't do the math yourself, how do you know you are right?
Because my only claim is really that we haven't done the math collectively. That's all I need to prove. And I've shown its obvious.
About what the math will show, I know I am right to myself, but all I am proposing that is FACT in this regard is that we haven't done it together, we should not fear doing it together, we all stand to gain, and we have the tools to do it.
(To be clearer in a different way, I have actually shown the math, while admitting I'm not strong in the area...so no doubt someone will correct part of it, or even point out I don't have much of a clue)
But I have played around with it enough to have come to the realization, that we are losing individual hourly $'s because of our failure to cooperatively apply variance formulas to our EV calculations.
About what the math will show, I know I am right to myself, but all I am proposing that is FACT in this regard is that we haven't done it together, we should not fear doing it together, we all stand to gain, and we have the tools to do it.
(To be clearer in a different way, I have actually shown the math, while admitting I'm not strong in the area...so no doubt someone will correct part of it, or even point out I don't have much of a clue)
But I have played around with it enough to have come to the realization, that we are losing individual hourly $'s because of our failure to cooperatively apply variance formulas to our EV calculations.
Calling Bobbo Boba is pretty clever, mean, but clever.
Have your thread in mttc. You have 7 days.
I want to make one thing abundantly clear though. We can't lock stars reps out of reading the thread, and I won't stop them from posting either. If they see an idea in it that makes them money that isn't going to be good for regs, they will likely implement it anyhow.
Also, just because you make a thread, doesn't mean you are the owner of it. Demands or loads of post reports will get it locked immediately and will result in your ban.
Are we clear?
I want to make one thing abundantly clear though. We can't lock stars reps out of reading the thread, and I won't stop them from posting either. If they see an idea in it that makes them money that isn't going to be good for regs, they will likely implement it anyhow.
Also, just because you make a thread, doesn't mean you are the owner of it. Demands or loads of post reports will get it locked immediately and will result in your ban.
Are we clear?
Have your thread in mttc. You have 7 days.
I want to make one thing abundantly clear though. We can't lock stars reps out of reading the thread, and I won't stop them from posting either. If they see an idea in it that makes them money that isn't going to be good for regs, they will likely implement it anyhow.
Also, just because you make a thread, doesn't mean you are the owner of it. Demands or loads of post reports will get it locked immediately and will result in your ban.
Are we clear?
I want to make one thing abundantly clear though. We can't lock stars reps out of reading the thread, and I won't stop them from posting either. If they see an idea in it that makes them money that isn't going to be good for regs, they will likely implement it anyhow.
Also, just because you make a thread, doesn't mean you are the owner of it. Demands or loads of post reports will get it locked immediately and will result in your ban.
Are we clear?
I should say, my change involves exactly what you point out, stars can def come into the thread if they wanted, it would just look really weird if they did.
And we know that stars will act in its own interests that is a given (one of my points is that if a player doesn't recognize this in the math of their suggestion then they should rethink what they propose).
Me and you are on the same page with ALL of that, so I hope you understand I made sure of that in thinking of how to do it. Standard forum rules apply, and I'm not asking for any different type of modding.
This is why is a very very simple small subtle change, but I want to show in real time why it is significant.
Thank you though, for even a moment of sincere consideration (even if you just agree so I will shut up) I suspect TT will allow it in mttsng because I put it in the way I presented my cliffs above. I think I stated my point better now.
What do you expect from a poker site? They cater to rec players and look out for their best interest, shocker! You can have as many threads as you want but the fact is Stars will continue to ignore suggestions that negatively impacts rec players.
The 180s payout chance won't stop reg from playing but they'll certainly keep rec players around longer. Pretty absurd coming from Awice.
I hope for your sake this isn't the way you act IRL.
The 180s payout chance won't stop reg from playing but they'll certainly keep rec players around longer. Pretty absurd coming from Awice.
I hope for your sake this isn't the way you act IRL.
Within the same thread I'm going to prove you wrong on something you haven't said but you implied. You are implying since stars only acts in its own interest that the players have no hope to gain.
1 thread 7 days in mttsng forum, and ill prove you wrong. I'll show you how the players can gain, even tho we know stars won't budge
You aren't just arguing with me for no reason (while agreeing), you are shooting yourself in the foot...and this is why people say I'm crazy when I refer to myself as we, and that we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not at least investigating this change.
Are you 4?
I don't know if you know what math is,
Thank you.
Here is the solution, player will hold their discussions in this thread, and use 1 single dummy
Lee
Lol after his thread got a green light.
Sorry OP feels he has to go:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3954
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3954
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