2+2 user admits to cheating players and helps others cheat not banned? - Page 6 - About the Forums

grumpy64 · 08-21-2009, 06:03 PM

i"ve learned a long time ago that iv8 contorts reality to meet his own views and thus it is pointless to argue with him. You'll only give yourself a headache .

Pondus · 08-21-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cry Me A River

And you're a hypocrite when you claim you want botting to come out from the underground and be openly accepted by sites when you know that is impossible and the only way bots can continue to exist is surreptitiously because any openly bot friendly site will only attract botters and a handful of players intending to exploit bots. And no fish.

The bottom line is that players and sites have stated plainly they do not want bots. And yet you continue to force your bots upon sites and players against their wishes. You are the poker equivalent of a rapist.

No means no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianaV8

As I said, I also have example of sites that welcomed bots. I will simply not tell them in public. If one breaking the ToS is a rapist, then almost every player is, which makes no sense. I'm surprised we have to still reiterate on that point with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pondus

And by the same logic a jaywalker is a rapist... For someone who's supposedly good at solving logical problems you sure seem to struggle with this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianaV8

No. By the same logic, the users of the 2+2 software forum are mass murderers, because modding software is considered copyright infridgement, which as such is much more criminal activity than botting (which is not covered by any law, and if it is, it is allowed).

In all of these cases there is one thing being broken: The ToS. Everything beyond that, with few exceptions, are opinions.

It's not about breaking the ToS, it's not even about breaking the law, it's about the damage being done to the community, and you don’t have to pretend you don’t know or get that the community and the big pokersites all see botting as a major and unforgiving action, while they don’t even bother give out warnings for what “the users of the 2+2 software forum” are doing.

I don't know why I'm even typing this because you seem like a somewhat smart guy so this is something you already know. The question is; why don't you own up and admit what you're doing instead of pretending its no big deal? Most of us are always going to dislike you for what you’re doing, and see you and your peers as a threat, so at least be honest and aim for our respect.

**Le Gonso** · 08-21-2009, 10:41 PM

I think the question in the thread title is perfectly legitmate. Botters have an interest that runs counter to the interest of just about every poster on this site. Here in the US we're doing all we can just to be able to play online at all, and we've got knuckleheads here talking about building bots?

The notion that we should tolerate this seems much more weak and misguided than sensible. A cheat is a cheat however you want to dress it up with words and bad analogies.

tk1133 · 08-21-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Gonso

I think the question in the thread title is perfectly legitmate. Botters have an interest that runs counter to the interest of just about every poster on this site. Here in the US we're doing all we can just to be able to play online at all, and we've got knuckleheads here talking about building bots?

The notion that we should tolerate this seems much more weak and misguided than sensible. A cheat is a cheat however you want to dress it up with words and bad analogies.

+1

VP$IP · 08-22-2009, 12:01 AM

If people think that online poker is nitty now, what do you think it will be like if bots are allowed to become more prevalent. Do you think that bots will be loose? Even most losing bots have decent pre-flop strategy.

How many bots do think it will take at a table before it is not worth the time and effort to win money from the few remaining donators?

Right now, Stars and Tilt are making an effort to exterminate bots and the cheats who operate them. They have gotten noticeably better at it. They know something that some players have not figured out yet. That is why bots are against their T&Cs.

**Bobo Fett** · 08-22-2009, 02:54 AM

I'm no Indiana fan; I find his supposed belief that botting isn't harmful to poker extremely annoying, but can't be bothered arguing with him anymore.

If he spams his site, it needs to be reported and dealt with. If he derails threads telling everyone that they should be botting, it needs to be reported and dealt with.

AFAIK, he doesn't do those things. He takes any opportunity he can to talk about the subject, but that's about it.

The discussion here shouldn't be about IV8. If you don't like botting being discussed on 2+2, then your problem is with the rules, not IV8.

indianaV8 · 08-22-2009, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Gonso

I think the question in the thread title is perfectly legitmate. Botters have an interest that runs counter to the interest of just about every poster on this site.

I'm surprised that some 2+2 mods are not aware of their own member's preferences.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...ou-bot-563897/

In this thread, about half (exactly 44% as of now, of 100+ people sample, which is almost close to the normal 2+2 poll participation, and that was the situation before any post from Cry Me The River over there) the NL-ring people clearly said that they would build a bot (there were two options to choose - would you build a bot if you can buld one that can win; and would you build one if they were allowed).

In fact, from the people that voted no, some said that they voted no for no other reason other than bots are currently not allowed.

So from this random honest and non-manipulated sample - 50% of 2+2ers voted they like bots!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobo Fett

I'm no Indiana fan; I find his supposed belief that botting isn't harmful to poker extremely annoying ...

I'm willing to discuss with you, or any other mod by MSN on this - first to avoid public flaming, second to elaborate more on this point with arguments that wouldn't be appropriate to post here.

DMoogle · 08-22-2009, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianaV8

So from this random honest and non-manipulated sample - 50% of 2+2ers voted they like bots!

You have a warped perception of the public if you think that someone saying they would do something because it benefits them means they like the act in general.

I think there was a thread asking the same question about if someone could have access to a Superuser account, would they use it or report it. Many people said they would. Does that mean they like them or think they are a good thing?

EDIT: And micro-stakes full-ring NLHE != 2+2.

VP$IP · 08-22-2009, 03:27 AM

Talk of bots at specially designated tables is disingenuous.

The reality will be many bots at every table, all with textbook pre-flop play. A wasteland.

indianaV8 · 08-22-2009, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VP$IP

Talk of bots at specially designated tables is disingenuous.
The reality will be many bots at every table, all with textbook pre-flop play. A wasteland.

If these tables are limited, what is the problem? Where is the waste? If you say there will be many bots on every table this means there are a lot of people that would like to have fun building bots? Why you want to limit these, even if this does not impacts the rest of the humans?

pokerd-o · 08-22-2009, 04:03 AM

ZOMG, why is he not already banned?

Sniper · 08-22-2009, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk1133

I dont even want to publish his name. I'm sure people are unaware and I dont want to give probable cheaters another lead on who to contact....Some of you know who I'm referring to and I'd appreciate if you didn't openly publish his name is this thread. He doesnt need advertised....

lol tk... A+ Failure (or maybe promoting him was your real objective?)

Couldn't you at least have told us something really interesting... like
Stoxpoker supports Bots

Gin 'n Tonic · 08-22-2009, 04:49 AM

I have to agree with Indiana on a couple of things here – firstly an auto-folder is definitely a bot. It performs a pre-programmed action without user input, it never misclicks, it never tries to steal blinds, it never misjudges the situation. If you’re using one of these you’re botting – simple as that.

The use of datamined hands (that you didn’t actually play) to analyse another player’s style , whilst not botting, is definitely cheating imo. Yet mysteriously a lot of posters on this site don’t seem to think so…

Just for clarity, I’m not (nor have any ambition to be) a bot user, nor do I support their use. I also don’t a use HUD, Sharkscope, etc. I just play poker.

There’s a strong stench of hypocrisy in this thread imo. and Indiana doesn’t deserve the hate.

**Le Gonso** · 08-22-2009, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianaV8

I'm surprised that some 2+2 mods are not aware of their own member's preferences.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...ou-bot-563897/

In this thread, about half (exactly 44% as of now, of 100+ people sample, which is almost close to the normal 2+2 poll participation,

I'm surprised you'd even bother to try to present that poll as legit, when you know that it's flawed in just about every way a poll can be. Sample size of 116, two "yes" answers and a useless one, and it doesn't address the question at hand, which is whether botters should be tolerated here. Of course, you're well aware of all that, but posted it anyway.

Why don't you start a proper poll on whether botters should be allowed on 2+2, and perhaps keep responses public view to discourage shill voters while we're at it. Not that you aren't completely trustworthy or anything.

DMoogle · 08-22-2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper

Couldn't you at least have told us something really interesting... like
Stoxpoker supports Bots

The issue at hand (at least in my eyes) isn't really bots and AI, it's using and promoting bots at places where they are clearly unwanted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gin 'n Tonic

I have to agree with Indiana on a couple of things here – firstly an auto-folder is definitely a bot. It performs a pre-programmed action without user input, it never misclicks, it never tries to steal blinds, it never misjudges the situation. If you’re using one of these you’re botting – simple as that.

The use of datamined hands (that you didn’t actually play) to analyse another player’s style , whilst not botting, is definitely cheating imo. Yet mysteriously a lot of posters on this site don’t seem to think so…

Just for clarity, I’m not (nor have any ambition to be) a bot user, nor do I support their use. I also don’t a use HUD, Sharkscope, etc. I just play poker.

+1 to all of this, except I used to use a HUD (I don't when I'm playing heads-up, which is pretty much all I do nowadays).

FWIW, I didn't give bet-pot scripts a second thought before this thread, but now I think they can be compared to bots. I still kind of on the fence, but definitely leaning towards they should be banned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gin 'n Tonic

There’s a strong stench of hypocrisy in this thread imo. and Indiana doesn’t deserve the hate.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I haven't seen much hypocrisy. I do think he "deserves" the hate though.