So are you and Nicole done or is she going to move with you? I think I know the answer

Holy crap...it's the perfect storm of story tellers. WD and TST!!!

fyp, (de)General.

I am writing this my phone so I'm probably going to have some run-on sentences and s***** grammatical errors. I just got back from Sarasota visiting my mom for her birthday and actually made a video blog about what's going on but not sure if I want to post it. Right now if I were to move it would be alone as Nicole and I are sleeping in separate rooms and I just feel like I want my space from her and get back in touch with my friends in the poker world. I went over to Tim's house for a game tonight and for the first time in months I realize I have been missing a lot of things that had made me happy in my life. I'm still considering all the options that I have and it'll take a little bit of time probably after the new year before I really decide on anything.

WarmDeck - I'll be more than happy to show you Southwest Florida I had no idea you were in this part of the country. Feel free to p.m. me.

Sounds like it's time to move on

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I feel you started this story telling as you were missing poker and single life. Nicole sounds like she changed a good bit. I don't get why she is so controlling you seem to be a winner in life and she is lucky to have you. I hope you get your head straight, good thing is kids arent involved between you.

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dear god please do not go to Ocala

I was in Ocala over the summer. Not much out there but horses.

I am currently working on the next chapter in the story, but wanted to thanks everyone for the suggestions. Part of me just wants to say **** it and move to LV, what's the worse that could happen? I just got done with the work I had to do today, so going to finish that chapter up tonight.

Nicole means well but is in a bad place because of how her parents treat her as well as a few things in the past. I don't know what to do about that but I'm not going to fight that battle with her when she should just break away.

I don't think I would choose Ocala - Donnie used to work there as a dealer and he would drive up from North Port to deal 3 days, sleep in his car, then drive back home. It always sounded like a bad idea to me.

You're about 80 years below the median age for Ocala.

The First Game

Getting an underground, raked home game going, especially for the first time is like a full day's work the day of the game. I woke up and immediately got on the phone to verify the people that were showing up. It was easy to get 5-6 players that were recreational, came to play for the love of the game, and did not care if they were up or down. The car salesmen, Nazi, Paulie, Sally all fit into this category. The problem was getting the other 4-5 players such as Nice Shoes, Drunk Mike, and a couple pro friends of mine to come to a new game. It was advertised as a 1/2 with an optional 5 from any position, I had to put this in to entice some of the dealers who wanted more action. I also had to be smart about who might come and want to borrow if they went broke. There were certain people I would loan up to 2k such as Sally and Nazi, but they rarely asked. It was the players like Paper Route, sometimes Nice Shoes, and a few other non-notables that could suddenly hit me up and Paulie was not interested in any credit. I had come to the conclusion that some money would have to be lent, but it would be to established, loyal players that could pay it back or it was just a bad business decision. For someone who owned a successful business, Paulie was not great on the customer service side.

Another issue I ran into was I invited Tim, Josh and Tampa John. TJ and Josh told me they would never come to the game if Tim was there, and vice versa. It was no bueno because they were all regs that kept the game going for a long time, and maybe I would have to switch them off coming every other week. It really came down to what the customer wanted, and Mike knew this - that is why the Vito game ran for as long as it did. In a way I started to give Mike some respect - he tried to please the players, degen it up with them, but he did it as a fellow degen because he wanted to.

From 11am to 4pm, I was walking around the pool area at the condo in the 90 degree heat like a crackhead calling and talking to possible new players. I had to expedite the whole thing, from the sales pitch on the food, a lower rake, to offering rides to anyone that needed them. Carlos, my friend who degened it up in BJ at Hard Rock about 6 months back needed a ride from a half hour away and I made Nicole go and get them. Something about the underground part of this operation really got Nicole interested and I wasn't going to stop her from doing some of the legwork. After all, I ordered her and her daughter two season passes to Disney World which cost about $1400, so she could help me out with the small things. Nicole was by all means a classy individual, but she was well aware that she could convince guys to do things at certain times better than I could, and I appreciated that. Never once was I worried about anything happening cheating-wise, Nicole had clung to me like krazy glue and she was spending more and more time at the condo. Her mother was offering to take care of her daughter during the nasty breakup she had with her ex and seemed totally fine doing it now. At the time, it appeared to be a good idea.

One call I was not expecting was from Bookie - I did not think he would be interested in this game. It competed directly with his new game, and he did owe me money. Bookie seemed to have a dislike for me because I never sportsbet with him, I have never been in his debt.

"Hey Liam, I hear about this game. Is it going to be like Thursday night?"

"Yeah, just like Thursday, maybe some new players from this area and South."

"Do you mind if I come play?"

I told him I would be happy to have him come. He lived 40 minutes across town and he was good for tons of action. What he said next I did not expect.

"Do you mind if I bring Mike?"

Normally, I would tell Mike to die in a fire, but his debt was now Bookie's debt, and if he was going to back him and bring another player on his own dime, then I told him it was no problem. I even told him not to worry about the $200, I wanted to get that from Mike directly. Willy also called and asked if he could deal. I couldn't have him dealing the opening night of my game - there just wasn't any confidence in him at the moment, and honestly I wanted max value by dealing the whole night. I did offer him $25 a player if he brought some people and he got me two good cash players to come, well worth the $50. Some of you may think this is odd to "buy a player", but in the home game world, finding and recruiting players for a price is normal business. $50 now would be worth the extra 2 hours the game ran having a full table plus a few waiting in line, similar to loaning money but less risk. This was my first time meeting Rhett and his friend Gary, a pharmacist. Although their presence was relatively unimportant at this game, they would come to be new regulars in the coming months.

We started the game at 730 with a full table, two trays of chicken carbonara that Paulie's wife made just like her family recipe from back in Jersey, and a few pies, beers, and sodas/Red Bulls for the non-drinkers. Keeping players happy in the underground was a bit complicated, because each player has a different reason for being there. Fishier types want plenty of food and drink and want to have a good time. Reg and pros want to have a profitable game with low rake and plenty of action that they can prey on, and in fact it is these types that can really hurt a game's profitability. If they get pissy, lose a big pot, etc. they can cause a scene and can kill a game if not handled correctly. I know as a person that considers himself more pro-ish than recreational that I will not play in higher rake games, I tend to tip more reasonable amounts, and play a little tighter than the guys who came to splash. I had to accommodate my own kind there, as there were a few people who were there strictly to win money and did not care for food, drinks comped, etc.

I was very nervous at the beginning of the night, having to cover expenses, making sure everyone was happy, but after an hour the "ice" broke, and the game was basically running itself. I was looking over at Paulie and he seemed happy that there was a full table, no problems, and we ran from 730-230. At 200am, we were 6 handed, and the gamble was on. Sally was in the game for 600 plus 400 I lent her, and she was down to 200 and doubled up, seemingly happy regardless of being stuck. At 230 I paid everyone out - Bookie, Sally was up about 100 of money she didn't owe me, Rhett, and a couple others. Bookie wasn't done with action for the night and suggested Omaha flips. Sally seemed interested and even though she had no idea how it worked, she just threw her money in. She won the first $100 flip 4-ways and Bookie wanted another, so did the others, and after some rinse and repeat, Sally ran $100 into $800. She walked away a winner after two flips and told me she needed me to teach her the game in a very suggestive tone. Nicole was outside smoking a cigarette and didn't see it, thank god because if she had she would have said something that may have caused a bad end to an otherwise good night.

After I gave Paulie his $250 cut for food and the house, I walked away with $1100 in tips and rake. No book, no over rake, just straight up poker. It took some effort to bring the right players, but it was well worth it not to bring people like Donnie to the game that suck the life out of both it and that put you in the red. Even Paulie's wife thanked me because this was money that they could use considering it was getting out of season in the area for their deli and any extra money was good for them. I shook hands with Paulie and felt happy that I could do this without all the stress and drama from the other games.

After the game ended, Vito called me to ask if he could come down and play. I knew exactly why he had called. He was curious how well it ran and I was modest with him - it wasn't his business what the numbers were. As great as the game ran, I knew there was going to be interference in the future - whether it be from Mike, Vito, Tim, people were going to try and bring us down, and I was determined to fight fire with fire. That night I fell asleep on a lounge chair in the pool area at the condo, and woke up to the maintenance guy waking me up at the asscrack of dawn, telling me the pool area was for owners and guests only. I showed him my keys and he was very apologetic - normally I would get extremely pissed, but I had an air of satisfaction that kept the rage from welling up. I walked inside the condo and Nicole had taken up the whole bed, so I pulled a sleep n creep on her then claimed my side and passed out. I was looking forward to playing Thursday as a player and not a dealer/owner. I was ready to splash around.

Great read brother.

Only half way thru and totally hooked.

AsianIce Lady.........lol

Anyone whose around this area knows who that is. That had cracking up. She is so nitty with a sprinkle bluff now and again.

"At the time, it appeared to be a good idea."
...OOOH, FORESHADOWING!! Can't wait to see what happens :-D

I remember Mike. Played a few of his 1/2 games before the casinos opened. I stopped when I got a dealing job at one of them, didn't want to risk it.

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Mike was a great dude, wish I had a game like that out here in LA.

Between this thread and WarmDeck posting regularly again BBV is as good as it ever was.

So have you ever done the actual math on real profits from a home game. I don't want any spoilers getting posted but have you ever done a full tally on total expenses and hours put in vs the take?

1100 sounds nice yet.

Table = expensive
Custom Chips = I assume fairly expensive
Paulie = 250 seems awfully cheap considering he's providing location, food and taking on majority of legal liability, maybe I'm a liferoll nit but couldn't ever see myself doing that for just $250, especially if he's not playing he and his wife spend all day prepping and all night watching then cleanup
Drinks/Non Paulie Food = I imagine this costs a bit more than you'd expect but maybe I'm wrong
Unofficial employees= 2 Disney season passes, $50 for headhunter, dealers, gas for long drives picking up players, unknown expenses

So even if we take startup costs aside, assuming $100 for drinks, $50 for headhunters, gas etc you cleared 1k.

daytime passive hours ensuring players will show = 1-2 hours
Prep time, cleanup, and waiting for players = 1 hour
Dealing game = 7 hours

That's not too bad, over 100 an hour when all said and done but considering legal risk, startup costs, and extra costs like Paulie realizing he's getting shorted, replacing broken **** and paying dealers it doesn't seem that worthwhile.

Is that accurate?

Some of that is right, but Paulie was getting $250 plus half of what was left of the rake, so he was getting like 65ish percent. The Disney passes were just a nice present to Nicole and her daughter for her daughter's birthday, not really a game expense. Paulie did all cleanup, food prep, hosting, etc. for that $250, and I got to deal, which came out to about $400. Startup costs should be taken into account, but basically all my costs added up to $450 one time for chips and extras. The chips weren't as much as you would think, and weren't custom, but we kept a tight count. I would have done the food myself but Paulie was known for being a good chef and the food really was a plus to a number of the rec players. I can barely make macaroni and cheese so that was added value.

Even with extra hours put it for the calling/buying of players, it came out to about $110 an hour.

EDIT : Paulie bought the table, so no cost to me there.

Not accurate.

1. TST probably won't be discolsing his real numbers.
2. The longer the game runs the more rake is made, it's essential that the game runs as long as posibble
3. There are like 20 side deals you can make to increase your profit, including putting dealers in the box that owe you money, having dealers bring 3+ guys and deal to get your game going, dividing up percents/fees with "headhunters" ect.


TST I've been int he underground scene in NYC for over 10 years. I like your stories a lot, and I have a few questions.

1. How do you determine who deals (other than yourself?)
2. Do you give bonuses to players that show up on time or buy in bonuses?
3. Do you have a free roll before a game one day a week (you should)
4. Why does your game normally end at 2-230 am?

If you want PM me I can tell you what I learned from my time in NYC and maybe you can apply it to your game there.

Yeah man, I'll be happy to shoot you a message and talk about the game. I know the games in NYC are probably the best run games of any, and I am always looking for ways to improve even if a game isn't currently running.

I would deal as long as I could and no one owed money to the game. I actually ended up dealing 85% of the time because it was a very small window to make good money and only let it go when I knew my only way to get back money was to let someone else deal.

No freeroll, I have actually never seen this used in a home game, we rarely played any sort of tournament.

The game ended at 2-230 because 3-4 players leave early for a 6am job and even though they will degen, they held off that night.

A Nice Wholesome Trip

When Sally won those consecutive Omaha flips she was in a good mood regardless because that weekend Nicole, her daughter, Sally, Izzy, and Sally's husband were all going to a resort in Orlando and to Disney. Sally and Nicole had hit it off as bffs, and it made things easier as I could play poker and bring them both along. Sally would play too, and Nicole would just drink at the bar. We went to the local track and when I went there with Sally I would always play 1/2. 1/2 here, as it was in most places I had played in Florida, was basically just coolers unless you had a real spewy character that was either wasted, a snowbird/tourist, and usually both. It was getting near to the end of season and there was still a good crowd - the new $100 no rake tournament was in full swing and no one tried to run a home game on Wednesdays because it attracted most of the cash game players because of the value.

Sally usually would prefer that I sit at her table when we drove up to play at Hard Rock or here if I wasn't playing Omaha, so I got a 1/2 seat at her table and sat down with the max of $200, and would critique her play in significant hands on smoke breaks. We would rarely go to war, although we had in the past. After about three orbits I picked up 1010 and in MP made it 20 to go after a button straddle and a Sally in the BB. It folds around to Sally who calls and we see a flop of 832. She checks to which I bet 25, and she knows I am not trying to bluff her off her hand. She responds with a check-raise to 60 (gotta help her on sizing) and I call. What frustrates me is I taught her to apply pressure to opponents with equity such as flush draws and now I have a player and a friend I taught to do so using it on myself. The turn is the 3 and she leads out for $25, which made no sense because its not enough to be value or a bluff, but I call. The river is a J and she checks, I tap the table and she shows 78 for second pair and 10s are good. She gives me this smirk like she got caught stealing.

"I was trying to get you off a flush draw," She said in a serious tone.

"You're going to need to stick in all in to get me off that, not a minraise."

"I think YOU should stick it all in..." She was trying to be funny yet sexual at the same time and the table started laughing and ooohhing at the same time. I could have said something real dirty but considering I just took her for a decent pot and Nicole was right there at the bar it wouldn't go down well.

In a nice gesture, I ordered a couple shots of tequila for Sally, myself, and a guy named Tequila Jim who was a beast when it came to the consumption of this particular liquor. Jim was a professional ticket scalper and he made a good living doing it. He had come to a few of our games at Vito's, and I was talking to him about coming to our game, and he was up for it as long as there was tequila.

"How do you two know each other?" Jim asked, as he knew me but had not met Sally.

"Oh, that's my ex-girlfriend mother." He laughed and did not believe me. I told him to ask her how we knew each other and she confirmed it.

"See, I thought you two were together by the way you acted." He seemed interested in talking to Sally, who usually blows off the OMCs and creepy dudes at the room that she doesn't know. For a middle aged woman she could definitely hold off the guys that usually drove most females away from playing here. I told him I was with the girl at the bar, which was easy to point out because there were like 3 girls in the whole room.

"Oh, you're with HER?" He was surprised, just because most girls who dress like that aren't here with dudes playing poker, they are here to make money. "You know you can see right through her dress, right?"

"Yeah, I know." I gave him a lifted eyebrow that I was fully aware, and that kind of threw him off - it got him to stop asking questions though.

"SHOTS FOR EVERYONE!" Jim screamed to the table, and he bought another round of tequila for all who wanted one at the table plus Nicole, who by this time was on her 2nd Long Island. Nicole gets all friendly and touchy-feely when she drinks, and I wasn't looking forward to mopping her off the floor later.

Sally ended up hitting quad 7s for $300, and I got in a leveling war with one of the 1-2 "pros" at the track, I picked up AK in the HJ with a "pro" OTB straddling. I made it $25 after two limps and get minraised to $45 by the button. I have seen people do this before to isolate players so the pot doesn't go multiway in 1/2 games.

"Oh, are you trying to isolate ME?" I asked him, I wasn't used to getting isolated, but I did not know this player like I did much of the room. He must have seen me talking a lot to Sally and thought we were a couple of rec players, and with the drinking I have to be incompetent. I started a mini Will Kassouf style talk asking him if he wanted me to stick it in the same way that Sally wanted and the table laughed a little. I decide to call, and do something I rarely do - check dark. The flop came out 1096 and he bets $60, to which I again play the part of a spewy incompetent player and minraise to $120.

"I just isolated you here, you can't just call, you have to stick it in or fold. Do you really want to fold the best hand on camera?" I was hoping that needle was getting through the hoodie and sunglasses, and he said nothing but stuck his two stacks in after about a minute. I dropped a chip in the pot and he shows A10. The turn had him drawing dead and he had this "I can't believe my bad luck" look on his face. I throw the dealer a red chip and take the $450 pot. The next hand I lose $150 of it back running KK into AA and it was slightly tilting.

At this point, I notice Nicole is not at the bar, and hasn't been for 15 minutes. I asked the bartender who has gotten to know her well where she had gone, and he said outside to smoke. I went to the smoking area and she is there hanging out with Jim and some other guy who I knew by face but not by name, he was a 2/5 player. I am pretty sure I had a displeased look on my face when I approached them.

"Hey Liam, we had no idea this was your girlfriend. We all went out for a smoke and she wanted to come along, I hope that was okay." The guy who I didn't know was clearly picking up the fact I was a little angry and tilted and was trying to be nice.

"Oh, to SMOKE." It finally hit me that they went out to the car to smoke weed. Guys did that here all the time and seeing as it was only 15 minutes, I figure nothing else could have happened. I took Nicole aside and she was still very lucid, but it was time to take her home. This is why you don't bring your girlfriend to the poker room, whether she wants to go or not. I knew these guys meant nothing sketchy, but now I had a liability on my hands. I can't have Nicole wandering around and getting in some dude's car, I was lucky it happened to be people that knew me.

I went back inside to tell Sally that we had to get going soon and she was pounding some green colored shot. I asked her if she was good to go and she was, just not sober. Great, two liabilities. She cashes out down a little and I do too, up about $50 and they are walking out to the valet like a bunch of drunken hobos. I get them in the backseat and head off towards the highway home. About 10 minutes into the drive I hear kissing in the backseat. I turn around and Nicole is kissing Sally and I was in a little shock because I just found it weird my ex's mom is making out with my current girlfriend. It wasn't anything hardcore, but definitely enough to turn me on, and thought about this. It would be very interesting to pull that threesome off, but I had learned my lesson about that with Marcy and Kendra. I had no problem watching them, however.

I was in a little bit of a conundrum because Sally couldn't drive home from the condo. She wasn't wasted, but I think she would have blown well over the limit and the cops were brutal back towards her house. It started to pour and we rushed into the condo, Sally sat down on the comfy chair and Nicole and I on the bed. Sally fell asleep and in this cramped area, Nicole got on top and started riding me, being a little too loud. I am pretty sure Sally woke up and saw what was going on, and just closed her eyes to pretend she was sleeping. It was a little awkward in retrospect, but she conveniently woke up after I got out of the shower. She insisted she was sober, and although I didn't fully believe her, I figured she was okay to drive. Nicole said goodbye to her with a smile and I felt that there was some "missed value" there.

Maybe the next time I go up there they can just get tipsy again and we can try something a little different? That's what was going through my head as I fell asleep - thoughts, but not necessarily thoughts I could act on.

UGHHHHHHH maximum -EV itp

noooooooo

Sally's husband either has the patience of a saint or actively dislikes her company.

He thinks they're all tumbling, tumbling dickweeds.

Sally's husband might be the quietest hermit I ever met, but a really nice guy. Out of all the people Sally knew, I was the only person that got to know him well, but he was basically a pushover. I'm not sure why they never divorced, but after 20 years I guess they were just comfortable with living together. He will be in a future post so I hope I can shed some light on him.