BTNH have been walking off stages for two decades unapologetic to the max, standard!

I've been on 2p2 for a looooong time and rarely post but peruse often. I wandered onto this thread after putting the kids down while on vacation over spring break. 2 days later, I've hit the last entry - great read and appreciate the time and effort made in putting this together. I think the highest compliment I can give is that you got me to take the time to post in return. Well done!

Quick question - I live in a state where there are no casinos so the underground poker world is all there is and we live with the rake and risk - I guess I don't understand why players would choose to play in a home game when there's a casino nearby offering the same games with lower rake and no security or legal concerns? Outside of a home game offering free boos and food, what are the benefits of playing a home game vs a local casino? Apologize if I'm missing the obvious. Just trying to put myself in the story and leave the casino to play in a home game (since you mentioned getting players from there).

Thanks again for the story OP.

That sucks, real bummer when people can't just have some fun and enjoy the show.

I will never forget the first time I heard A B-Boys Alpha. The track is so raw, but Vast Aire still has that flow. Def Jux had a lot of really good artists come through

notsureifserious.jpg

Guy is actually pretty entertaining, especially the remixes, but god damn my man boxed himself in career-wise with those tattoos.

FWIW this is the only 2+2 thread I have stickied, I check in on a regular basis for updates from the man who coined the term 'fibrous green wang'.

Sorry to hear life is treating you badly

100% Serious

Don't disagree with your point...However, it is his life to live the way he wishes.

Kids got skillz, he's good to his fans and humble af. let's hope he blows up. He's already toured across the ponds and done very well for himself so far. He supports himself on his dream...and that I admire.

#dontmeantoderail

The most obvious reason for playing home games when the casino is available is access to credit/book, and ability to pay by check (which may or may not turn out to be good) instead of having to pony up cash). And of course at least in many cases the home games are much softer than the equivalent size game in the casino.

this.... plus the liberal rules/law

for me...
#yayo

for others...
weed at table/ outside
cursing
fighting
the "pawn shop" as outlined in thread -- trade your own poker table for a min buy
whores
waitresses that are more than waitresses (see above)
the card rooms here close between 2 and 4 am -- they run all night at someones house


also, the best degens are usually the dealers in the local cardrooms. so a group of dealers usually the younger guys live together too, instead of driving 1+ hour to nearest room they can play in, this is great. plus they are better customers because if they're on credit they pay it back, even if slowly.

This actually makes more sense than the post above (no offense) re: not needing cash (a new guy walking in to a home game from a casino won't have that option which was ultimately why I was asking when the stakes offered are the same).

Never heard of a casino closing so that's news to me, but I've never been to a FL casino.

OP - what happened to the high stakes boat/yacht PLO game you were getting staked in? Unless i missed it, you were 2 for 2 with a big score in your 2nd trip. If I'm backing you, I'd be calling you myself to get you in again. Did you not continue?

Oh **** #yayo have you been to TST's home game???

i haven't been to it, but have been invited and/or played with some of the guys that have played. I've also spoke with TST in regards to my situation and maybe a meet up in the coming months, possible with WarmDeck and/or Rockets.

The fish tank (or fish bowl -- always forget) game runs still and they always try to get me, also the old guy's PLO game, both in the naples area -- not sure if TST knows either of those games, i'll leave to him to respond.

I am definitely an AZ, Slick Rick, Gang Starr fan too, a lot of people outside of the NY area aren't that familiar with that "word specialist" style like I mentioned. I remember when AZ came out with "Pieces of a Man" I was living on Long Island, my friend and I would ride around in his jacked up Cherokee with two 15" in it and just blast away. He's often known as the most underappreciated hip-hop artist of all time. I also remember when Wu-Tang came out with Forever, Chris had just gotten his license in March of 1997 and it came out in April, we had all pre-ordered a copy at Tower Records...LOL.

I can't say I'm a Bone Thugs fan though.....

That was 20 years ago, that's insane!

This is a good question, and it really comes down to what a home game can offer that a casino or cardroom can't. Home games is a breeding ground for degeneracy and action, which brings in the degens with a lot of money. This in turn brings in more pro-ish players because the action is great. They will justify a slightly higher rake because they should run much better in a game where their all-in EV will be higher. Also, if you add in free food, water, booze, etc. you can justify some of these expenses. Like Marc said, most rooms close or lose a lot of action around 2am, home games are in their prime at this time. Also, credit lines are allowed to an extent depending on the game, how long you have been playing, etc.

Rules are also very lenient, usually you can run it twice in a three way all-in, you can talk a lot more **** too (for fun) and not have a floor breathing down your neck. I think it was Marc that mentioned dealers are the best home game recruits, and it's true, they push action, pay on time, and they'll ride together to a game after a shift is over. One week, between Tim and I, we had half the local cardroom's staff at one game or the other. One dealer in particular would hand me a check at the beginning of the night, and at the end, if he was down, he would just write it in and sign it. It was to a 7 figure trust fund so I knew it was good. This is what caused 4k pots at a 1-2 game, and the winning hand was 78 offsuit, lol.

I think for a large number of the players, just like Tom Sizemore said to De Niro - "The action IS the juice."

A couple of reasons why I haven't put up a yacht PLO session. Our season in Florida is from December to April, and these guys are never down here in the summer, this is where they spend their winters. Also, Big John is not someone who had an interest in staking poker, he didn't see it any differently than blackjack at the time. He was doing it to appease his yacht club friends, he was very desperate for their acceptance. I did get to benefit from this and did get John to continue, I will post that in the near future .

I am pretty sure we played once or twice at Derby in the 5-10 PLO game that ran back in 2013 next to the 2-5NL tables. It used to run 4-5 handed, do you remember this game? I don't remember if it was you exactly but you look really familiar. I haven't been to Derby in a while, I only know a handful of dealers there, but I have a lot of friends that play there regularly.

The Fish Tank is a place with some pretty sick action 6-7 nights a week. Unfortunately the guy who runs it doesn't keep a low profile about it and he also lets just about anyone in, which is a problem because you are asking to get robbed. Naples per capita is one of the richest cities in the US, but the suburbs can be sketchy and I was actually told by two other people that they personally felt uncomfortable playing there, and they aren't really the sensitive type. The old man PLO game is so much better but it is private, and 5-10-20 is not in my bankroll right now. From what I remember Racener used to play in that game when it only ran at the Naples track. Now they switch it up between Naples and Immokalee. It is funny because you can look on Bravo at SHR Immokalee and there will be one or two 1/2 tables and then a huge PLO game, and nothing in between.

Marc, send me a message sometime soon or if you are heading down this way.

Take It Personal

By October of 2015, I was slowing sliding downwards in my state of being - financially, mentally, physically or otherwise. When the home games had started in the winter of 2014 I was 170 pounds, now I was pushing 205. I have been a Puma fiend for some years and I would buy every polyester t-shirt color and style they had – none of that stuff fit anymore. I would sleep from 7am to 12, then 3 to 6pm just because I could. I just didn't care anymore and had given up on being an adult for the most part. What didn't help was this overwhelming cloud of dizziness. It was affecting my ability to think rationally, and I started to limit myself because of this mental incapacity. I didn't like taking left turns at red lights, rolling up to them made me very anxious. To take care of my mom, I had to drive about 4 miles over a bridge into the suburbs and just getting there was a challenge of it's own. It was almost as if when I got there, I would take care of her physically, but she would take care of me mentally. I would have uncontrollable thoughts doing something as simple as checking out at Publix, and I started sticking to drive-thrus for food if Nicole wasn't around. My psychiatrist even doubled my klonopin, which just made me dizzier and I finally decided to get rid of the guy – he was just giving me what I asked for, not what I needed. $105 for 10 minutes just to make sure I wasn't going to abuse the meds, what a joke. I found a government run place that would take me in for $15 a session, therapy included because I had no provable income. I am not particularly proud of this, but I am cheap, and there was no real way for me to declare the majority of my money at the time. I never was one to ask for help from the system, but I needed help and the medical system in the US is a joke. The one thing that didn't precipitate this anxiety was poker. If I wasn't binge-playing PS4, I would be binge-watching poker tournaments, cash, you name it. I also looked for games, whether to deal, play, or run. Poker had become my life – I existed for the game.

Another thing I had started first as a “solidarity” thing with my mother, but looked into further was the electronic cigarette business. I was tired of blowing a buyin per month at the games just on cigarettes, and I had used vape pens before, but a friend of my sister's introduced me to “The Mechanic”. Mechanic was an ex-opiate addict who had found vaping and building systems as his method of recovery and had found it very successful. He worked at a nearby vape shop, and I had gone to him initially to set me up, then I realized this business was simple physics and chemistry. I made him an initial offer to leave his $12 an hour job to come start something new, but he was hesitant – his girlfriend didn't approve. His work was worth five times that, so I made him an offer to take in customers on contract and sell me his work on the side. Making E-liquid is simple chemistry, the only dangerous part was the addition of nicotine. With a little searching on the internet I found all the wholesale supplies needed. You can buy a bottle of nicotine concentrate, enough to kill a thousand people, for $30 including shipping. After this purchase, I was making 4 ounce bottles of liquid for $2 and selling them for $25, which was less than half the going rate of most shops, even online at the time. I also employed the services of my friend Crazy Chris, who wasn't actually crazy, just extremely ADHD and very lonely. He had a PhD in Chemistry from Arizona State and was just working part time at the Utilities Dept for the County for a shitty salary. There were literally no laws restricting the manufacture, sale, or distribution of E-liquid at the time, as well as no quality control. This made for an economy that was filled with garbage products, many from China, but even the US liquids were either badly made or just not well thought through. You could make the best tasting E-liquid out there, but if you don't market the hell out of it, no one is going to know. I figured between the plant business, this one, and poker, something had to take back off. I was firing shotgun shells into the dark hoping something would hit.

I went to Epcot's Food and Wine Festival for my birthday to get the hell outta town, and things seem to come to an end in the Orlando area. First it was Mike's job at the cardroom when I was at Universal with Sally, and the evening before the festival, Paulie called me, which was not uncommon, but he knew I was out of town.

“Yo Liam, we have to talk about the game. It's just not something I can keep doing, ya know? If Donnie really talked to the cops and they're on the lookout, I can't have that. I have a legit business and I'm the perfect guy to throw the book at if they were to get us.” Paulie was right. He had a rap sheet of some drug charges, suspended licenses, and a few more, and he had assets that they could take. The money was good, but his business was better. Season was just around the corner and he wasn't going to have the time. I told him I understood but give it a good thinking over and try to reconsider. Although he wouldn't tell me at the time, I am pretty sure his marriage was not doing so well either. It put a little bit of a damper on the weekend – that was a large chunk of change I was going to have to give up. Where was I going to make that up? Ask my sister to host a game? Try and buy out someone else? I couldn't concentrate much on my birthday as this stuff rolled through my brain.

The final matter that was pressing me constantly was Nicole. She had been coming back and forth from her place, up here, making a 90 mile round trip very often, and staying whenever she could. As much as I had here in town, she had her daughter that she had to be there for. She couldn't just make a move with her up this way, my condo was too small and I was living too much like a bachelor in a relationship. She wanted me to move down with her and I had been putting it off. I had made some tentative dates for coming down, but the problem was I had too much going on here, and nothing going on down that way. It strained our relationship quite a bit and we did argue pretty fiercely. You could say I had not done my due diligence in the relationship and I was paying for it. Normally when I argue with a girl I am dating, I think it is just the end and should move on, but Nicole went up and beyond what any person would do for another. She was very supportive of my ventures, helpful with my anxiety, and understood I was not a normal person and did not lead a normal life. I wasn't afraid of moving down south, I just didn't know if I could bring my work with me, and still keep in the games.

When I had gotten back from Orlando, I stopped over at Tim's to discuss what was happening to the game and that I wanted to bring my night to his house. We made an arrangement that I would get a piece of Tuesday night action as long as I promoted the game and would also get half the box time. It was sad having to come back to this, but I was hoping the other businesses would take off in time and this would be temporary. The cash players preferred my game – it was less drama, nicer, better run, and they knew they weren't getting cold decked. The Tuesday after my birthday, I had gotten ready, brought my bridge size jumbo index Da Vinci card set up, and took the three mile trip to Tim's. As I took the last left to come up to Tim's house, a sense of betrayal started to well up in me as I saw Mike's Trailblazer parked on the side of the road. This was not a good start to a new arrangement, as I had told Tim that Mike was not to benefit at all from the Tuesday game. I parked my work van like an ******* and walked up to the house, ready for a final confrontation with Mike.

Cash Me Outside

I got out of the van and tried to slam the door, but I somehow threw the door back at the wrong angle and it only clicked shut and didn't properly close flush with the vehicle. These older Ford vans had terrible handles and they would always break, lock up, only open from the inside and it was a pain trying to rig it so they all worked. Half my doors were zipties that were rigged to the locking mechanisms and I had to open the sliding door from the inside when I was loading plants. I don't really know why I even had the van anymore, I hadn't delivered or picked up material in two years and this wasn't exactly a gas saver. I think part of me felt I would end up sleeping in a van by the time I was 40 and I didn't want to give up the inevitable. I double checked the door after my slam didn't close the door and realized the passenger front wheel was actually not on the driveway and hovering over the drainage ditch. It was so bad I was surprised it hadn't tipped over. My anger for Mike turned into fear of rolling the van.

I ran inside, and since I would always deal or be helping run the game in some fashion or another, I was usually the first person there. Mike was rarely early, and as I was in a sense of general frustration from him and my van about to tip over that I was ready to lay into Mike hard. As I walked past the pillar I found a rather embarrassing situation. Usually these guys would be joking, playing OFC for $1/point, but Tim was sitting down with this stare that he had when he was angry, and Mike was walking back and forth. There was a lot of yelling going on and I started to spectate.

"Dude, you owe me over a grand and you owe Rhett's book almost the same amount. I can't guarantee you anything tonight."

"I need to deal, I need to make money bro - I have no electricity in the house." Mike and his wife had recently had another kid, and in a tiny two bedroom duplex, this was clearly not working out. I am pretty sure he got her pregnant so that his wife wouldn't leave him. I wouldn't be surprised also if his wife let it happen so they would get more government assistance for having another child. That's how a lot of people make money in Florida.

"Every night there is a game here and you deal, you lose all your tips then get into us for money, and we still give you money to go home with! Just don't play, just deal!" Tim was getting in his anger state that was hard to bring him down from, but he also realized he made a mistake. I brought the game over to his house, but not for Mike's benefit. Still though, I felt bad for the guy, and if he didn't have a newborn, I wouldn't have spoken up.

"I'll give him some of my time, I'm not going to want to deal all night anyway." The truth is that dealing for more than an two hours at a time was a little rough and can fry your brain, I'd like to have someone I can just call in to deal. It was funny though, as a year ago I was lucky to get some box time from Mike as he had taught me how to deal, and pretty well at that. I was kind of shocked I even let those words come out of my mouth, but I am a sucker for people in a hard place. Everyone understood it was my game to deal, and I would feel okay giving it away rather than fight with Tim or Mike trying to muscle me out of it. Still, Jim had this glare on his face that not all was alright. I had forgotten about my van and asked them for help. I had Tim stand on the driver's seat to keep the weight away from the ditch, and I had to climb through the rear doors because the front door was stuck. I got my van out and realized it might just be time to part with the kidnapper van.

It was sort of nice getting to deal the game without worrying about rake, book, getting players, security, etc. as well as a fill in at my disposal. To get the game started, Mike sat in with 200, and by the time I had him come in, he had lost half his stack. As time went on, Mike was getting more and more stuck, and Rhett and Tim were looking at each other like "WTF are we going to do with this guy". It was their game to run, I was no longer involved in the finances. If they were going to give the guy chips on credit, that was their loss. By the end of the night, I had made about 600, and Mike was down about that much before his tips, which weren't going to get close to closing that gap, or any other gap in the debts he had owed the game. He knew it, Tim and Rhett knew it, and I didn't see any way that Mike was going to get these guys their money without forcing him to deal it all off.

At the end of the night, my initial anger at Mike was diluted because I knew he was in no position of power to take over my place in the game. He was down and out big, and I started to pity him. He once had a gold mine of a game going, making thousands a week for 12 hours of work, and his own greed and flushed it down the toilet. The person that I knew as the jovial, loyal friend was completely gone. Around 4am, I told Rhett that I was done and was going to cash out. I had my rack in the back room with my chips colored up to green and we counted it out. He told me to follow him, got his wallet and started to pay me out right on the counter next to the game. This showed Rhett's inexperience with running any sort of game and told him to cash me out outside where people would see me getting paid. we headed outside and he handed me four 100s and a 50.

"There's still 150 missing from the total Rhett, I made 600 tonight."

"Well, our deal with the dealers is 75% of their tips they get to keep, the rest goes to the house."

"That might be your deal with Mike, who is a charity case, or Willy, who owes you money, but this is business, and Tim knows I keep 100% of my tips. They aren't tipping you for your service - I handed you this game on a silver platter." Some arguing ensued and I told Rhett if he doesn't pay me in full that this game wasn't going to run anymore. We got Tim out and he had to explain the business situation to Rhett. In retrospect, Rhett wasn't the best businessman. He wasn't friendly to players, didn't promote the game, he just wanted to collect the cash coming in that he thought he had paid for already. As we were finishing that up, Mike came outside with his backpack and the mood changed.

"Who the **** is dealing?" Tim asked, worried that the chips weren't watched."

"I let Willy deal - I know you guys aren't going to pay me anyway, why am I even ****ing here."

"You're here to make money, but you blow it all on your hero calls and your bluffs with ace high." Rhett started laughing and Mike had enough. He walked down the yard, towards his car, got in and peeled out back to his humble abode. We laughed at how delusional Mike was for thinking this was not completely his fault. He had forgotten that I had brought him in here, that he had skimmed off the rake to pretend that he didn't have enough to pay people out, or that he owed a few thousand to the people employing him.

He must have realized just how ****ed he was, because that was the last time I ever saw Mike, or that most of us had ever seen him. He took a job in a town about an hour away and hasn't been seen playing anywhere since. He still owes me a few hundred, Tim's game a few thousand, not to mention bookies. As far I know, his wife still puts up with him, and they still live in that ****ty duplex on the North side of town.

Mike reminds me of a roommate (named Michael aswell) I used to have over a year ago. He has leased his room in an apartment for 12 months. He ended up subletting out his place the last 4 months and didn't pay the main housing company rent for the remaining months. The company came to our unit and quickly evicted Michael's tenant, who had been making his payments responsibly to Michael the entire time. Apparently he tried to make off with about 2.5 grand of "stolen" money after that. It was absolutely outrageous. The bastard even owed me some money. It's scummy people like these that need to be kicked out the door the moment you find out who they really are.

Great thread man. Really enjoy the stories. Thanks for sharing them.

As always, I am glad you guys enjoy the story - I had the time to tell some more of the timeline, but got really bad food poisoning last night after eating Domino's pizza and am still feeling like total sh$t. I wanted to write a shorter, faster little update and TR about current things. First the TR.

TR - Publix

Publix is not a new thing for anyone in Florida, or most of the Southeast for that matter, but for those that don't know. Publix is a supermarket chain that has been in Florida for 60 years, and dominates the market share here and is expanding North. My first experiences with Publix were in Cocoa Beach at my grandparents place back in the 90s, but for the 13 years I have lived in Florida, I probably have visited Publix 2-3 times a week, sometimes more than once in a day. In those 13 years, I don't think I have ever had a bad experience, met a bad employee, and it somehow never gets old. If you ever move to Florida or come for an extended stay, make sure to visit the local Publix. They do selectively stay out of low income areas - you can see there is a big swath of interior South Florida where they don't exist. Employees get shareholder options and are treated really well, and if you don't have an education but want to work hard and move up the ladder, you can do so here.

What puts Publix ahead of the pack is their deli. They have subs made to order, better fried chicken than any chain restaurant, and all their bakery stuff is made in house (I think). You can have them make pretty much any sub you want as long as they have the food on hand, and some they have started to market as they have gained popularity. I would personally recommend their chicken tender sub, probably their most popular, and it can be had many different ways. They will toss the tenders in buffalo sauce, or maple syrup and confectioners sugar (known as the chicken and waffles sub), and its effing delicious. Each week a new sub is on special, and this week happens to be the chicken tenders - a footlong is six dollars. They also make their own sushi on the spot which I think I had for lunch about 40 days in a row one time. In South Florida they also have ethnic Cuban and other Latin American foods such as guava and cheese pastelitos, Materva, and when I used to live there I basically ate Cuban food the entire time between there and Pollo Tropical. The downside is they are incredibly busy in season and the best time to go there is right before closing. Every week they also have buy one get one free specials (BOGO), and though some of these aren't that great, some are insane deals and worth stocking up. I know they are in Atlanta, Charleston, Charlotte? and creeping north - look for them coming to a town near you.

Update

As I mentioned, the past few weeks, even month or two have been kinda rough. I appreciate everyone putting in their thoughts on the story and I will tell it until it is over. Over is a vague term - the summer of 2016 is really when I said goodbye to the "Home Game", so to speak, but interesting things have been happening since then and I need to write faster than the events happen or I will be writing until the end of time. In the past months, I have been in touch with a few other people on 2p2 about getting together for fun or for "new ideas". I spoke with WarmDeck a few months back and keep in touch every now and then - the stuff that he gets into is legendary and hope to meet up with him sometime down here. I also have spoken to ipuntstacks a couple times this past week and though we never knew each other in the poker world during these events, we crossed paths with the same people, for better or for worse. We both moved down here with family from up north over a decade ago, and I think we have similar outlooks on life, business, etc. and after talking a few times, came up with a few "ideas". I can't go into specifics, as nothing is concrete, but if something comes together, I'm sure there will be a story about it, and am optimistic. I will say that IPS is clearly a very smart guy and I give him a lot of respect coming forward with his story of getting scammed. I can speak for most people when I say that almost everyone goes through a trying time in life and as Winston Churchill once said, "When you are going through hell, keep going."

I didn't want to go off topic from the story, but I thought it might be relevant in the not too distant future.

Poker had become my life – I existed for the game.

THIS IS SAD

but addicts gonna addict

i ran to mx after the govt was trying to fine me for health care..i said f you.. www.yuclife.blogspot.com

this is the abysss.... my writing...

you KEEP ON KEEPING ON.... LOVE YOUR ****..... WRITE IT OUT LIKE A BOSS

WRITE LIKE A BOSS....

YOU AND LOTGRINDER HAVE REAL LIVE THANKYOU

AND DGAF

AND MAYBE CHUCK BASS BUT OTHERWISE THE ABYSS IS CAT PICS

AND EGO

you sir are a beautiful creature (AS PLAYED)

YOU MIGHT BE A POKER****... BUT YOU ARE GOOD FOR THE GAME!

I have that quote from Winston on my wall, I love it but it turns out he never actually said it. Doesn't change the truth of it though.

The main problem with Florida is that no one is "from" where they are currently living. When people ask where you are from, you tell them what state you are originally from. When finding roommates this can be a real sketchy scenario because it is almost always someone who is a complete stranger to not only you but anyone you know. What you mentioned happened a TON back in the foreclosure days, people would pay for a year lease and then get evicted. Really was ****ty to anyone who was honest and upfront back then.

as a florida resident you may know the name Taylor Bean and Whitaker. I spent 3 years working on their liquidation and the amount or moral hazard and blatant disregard for any law or person was astonishing. I have seen 100's of foreclosures in FL and seeing them, after the fact, it is hard to understand how anyone could actually buy into what was going on. Greed can be blinding though

Thank you man, it looks like you have found your zen place there in MX. If I didn't have commitments in Florida I would be somewhere in the Caribbean or Latin America myself.