Saturday afternoon 20-40 at the Woods -- must-move game.


Reads:

- Button: A player with whom I discuss poker a great deal. We know each other's game quite well, both based on playing against each other and discussing the game.


I get dealt JJ in the LJ. I am about to raise (but haven't moved yet) when HJ and CO snap fold out of turn. I notice before raising and think villain notices as well. I raise, he 3 button, blinds fold and I call. HU.

Flop: K 5 2

I check, he bets, I raise, he calls.


Turn: A

I check, he bets, I call.


River: 9

I check, he bets, I fold.



Flame away!


-magicmcq

the river is pretty much a blank no? Given your read I think check calling the river and hoping that he is turning 55-88 into a bluff is best. If you are going to fold the river then I would fold the turn.

There are a lot of players who will bet the flop and the turn and then check behind on the river when they're called on the turn. At least in my game, there are a lot more players against whom calling the turn and folding the river is correct than players against whom calling the turn and then calling the river is correct.

Why are we folding river after calling turn?

Only reason I can think of is because opponent thinks opponent does not bluff the river enough and would give-up. This is an opponent dependent read though, so not much to say. Absent of read, I call. Opponent puts you on not much and is bluffing a fair amount of time.

Every one like th c/r flop ?

I hate the cr flop. I just call down

Maybe Hero feels Villain isn't bluffing based off past experience

c/r serves no purpose. No reason to stick money in this spot and give information about your hand.

I actually kind of like it, but think check/calling the turn defeats the purpose

If we do check/call the turn villain also knows we can't have the top of our range, leaving hero with some bad ax hands at best

Check/calling with exactly 2 unpaired hearts would be the only hand that really makes sense to me, for practically every other hand leading or going for the exotic double-check raise seems stronger

Why are we not having a river folding frequency at all when we call the turn?

xr flop bad. calldown, lead if checked on turn is standard. if you're afraid of losing value, plan to donk turn or call twice and donk river.

+1

i think folding river is fine. this is actually one of the best hands to fold imo despite being towards the top. i don't c/r flop tho.

Shocked everyone hates flop cr so much, especially when the alternaive is him checking back tons of turns. It's fine to call down if we open UTG but I happily cr in this spot

Also, you guys really have a flop cr range that is exclusively Kx+ or Lx+ and flush draws?

I'd be more inclined to c/r on a Q-hi flop (and did in fact do just that a couple nights ago with JJ) than a K or A-hi flop.

What is Lx ?
btw i think magic played it actually pretty good with his line tho if you you think c/r JJ here is best.
I dont think check back turn from villain is a huge deal, we should have a pretty good range here and the bu says his got a great hand, so we are OOP with a decent bluff catcher on a card that hit a lot of his "stronger" range like setofj said.

i don't hate c/r flop, but have always defaulted to calling. i guess you're saying we should be c/r'ing tt+? i've never put much thought into these kinda spots and now thinking about it, i still don't really know how to go about all the parts of my range.

It's basically a button 3 bet vs cutoff open, were almost a 2-1 fav against his range on this flop and everyone wants to check call. Even against a nitty range we are a slight favorite

strange to see such a variety of opinions on this hand.

1. andy is definitely right when playing live that given this action, many people will take a shot on the turn repping the ace but give up on the river thinking "ok well i guess i'm getting called down with the pair." this makes it reasonable to c turn/f river. tommy angelo and ray zee always said the river bet usually tells you the most about a player's hand.

2. if you're not k/r'ing 99-QQhere, what are you k/ring? only flush draws and kings? A5s should be in that k/r range as well. there's definitely a better/perfect way to play this hand, but we won't know since 9to5 is gone. i think gto bots have a donk the flop range here as well as a k/c flop b turn range depending on what card falls and whether we have a h. i know for me, i have fewer buckets. i never donk here and don't k/c then donk turn for the most part. that means i have just 3 buckets: a) k/f, b) k/c, c) k/r. since i'm going to be folding a decent amount given the action and board, and calling a decent chunk, i have to be k/r'ing a decent chunk. you can split the flush draws into k/c and k/r and k/c a few other hands like good Ahigh's w/ bd flush draws (Esp here b/c it's likely bu is 3betting lighter than normal), so that leaves a lot of pairs needed in the k/r bucket.

3. i don't mind a b/f the turn. or b and then k/f river. if you're going to k turn, what hands are you k/r and k/f'ing? any? doesn't look like it. but that's kinda the signal you're giving off which means youre gunna get stabbed at sometime, so since you're not really k/r'ing here (though you should absolutely have a few k/r hands on the turn given the way this hand played against this villain), the turn call makes sense. also, it does make sense to k/f some rivers hoping for a check down at that point. sure, the turn hits his range pretty strongly, but there's still a bunch of worse made hands and flush draws villain can have here. if he raises a flush draw on the turn, nice hand.

then that just leaves if you bet the turn, what's your river plan? i'd think k/f makes sense a decent chunk of the time, but if he's willing to take a stab with a flush draw after your turn bet and river check, you may have to call the river with this line.

Dont know about you but imo UTG 6max and CO usually do not have the same range, the difference is notable.

He said that because the two players behind hero folded out of turn and both players in the hand noticed it, so hero was effectively the cutoff. Hero would have raised anyway, but villain may think he was raising light because of that.

Yeah ok i see, so c/r flop is better if OP was going to raise the same range in CO.
But than BU might have a wider range as well, maybe better let him barrel with few outs ? without the heart in our hand i would be more inclined to c/r the flop

I'd rather xr 5x and 66 for value than JJ.

Well this is pretty silly.

This hand is perfectly played. The only decision point is the first action on the turn.

If you don't like this flop kr, you should kr more of your air on boards like this.