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Old 10-23-2008, 04:29 PM   #1
jesse8888
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TPNK in a tiny pot

Same 20/40 game, with the same aggro prop still on my left. One player limps in MP, Max limps on the button, and I complete K 3 in the small blind. Prop checks his option in the BB.

4 small bets and 4 players:

K 9 4

How do you guys proceed here? Check and see or just lead out? 3 handed I'd bet I think, but is there merit to checking here and seeing what develops? Suppose I bet and get raised by the prop....What's my action and do I lead any turns (perhaps ones that are not s) if it's heads up? What if I check and the prop bets, and the other two fold?

Finally, and I know this is getting complicated....what would you guys do if we shifted everyone one position to the left.....put the prop UTG, still have a limper in MP, and have Max complete the small blind with me in the big blind.
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:43 PM   #2
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

if frank bets and both fold, call and c/r any turn (had an explanation for this, but dont want to post it, so that's just how i'd play it against frank). you'll be unlikely to get chips from frank if he has a worse hand.

if it gets checked to max, he'll bet no matter what in all likelihood, c/r the flop right then and there, since the flop is a bit coordinated with club/straight draws. bet all the way and expect to get called down by him with any ace high or any pair even 4s. he'll put you on either a str8/flush draw and have to call you down so he can suck his own dick
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:45 PM   #3
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

If you think there's a good chance it gets bet if you check I would usually go for a c/r trying to get someone to put in a hopeless bluff.

How often do you donk bluff in 3-4 handed limped pots? I like to donk bluff a lot and c/r with strong TP type hands in limped pots (but this is usually online where it's a bit more aggro). Donking with top pair no kicker seems like an ok way to balance this (are people paying attention to this type of thing?) If these guys just aren't ever folding any piece but aren't bluffing much or betting weak hands then I'd just lead out.

I'd definitely like a c/r a bit more if the LAGGY prop limped UTG because I think he'd fire his whole range on the flop and we'd have a good chance to c/r a couple people. QT/JT/QJ, pairs are probably going to stab at this flop.

If you check and the BB bets (or if he were UTG) and it comes back to you heads up I might try to c/r the turn if you think he'll bet the turn with a lot of his crap (a lot of which would probably at least see a river).

Rambling aside, I probably just donk this flop in a live setting.

And if the prop pops your donk I'd probably just 3bet. A stop and go might not be bad, but I think you could find a fold if he calls a 3bet on the flop and pops you on the turn (as this is basically always top pair good kicker+). We also get to charge him the max when he's drawing.
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Old 10-23-2008, 04:54 PM   #4
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Given the player descriptions, and if you really think "max" bets no matter what if it gets checked to him, then I'd go ahead and check with the intention of c/r'ing or sometimes c/c'ing depending on who is betting and calling...

However, I think the important thing is the inclination to lead 3-way but check 4-way. It should be the other way around for sure. If you were somehow HU in spot without initiative OOP, then you should never bet except under extreme circumstances imo.

The reason you should be more inclined to check HU or 3-way, but lead into a bigger field is that people will play way way more straightforward in a 4-way pot. If it gets checked to a sane button who has nothing, most players will take a stab against 1 or 2 opponents because it actually has a chance of winning the pot. Against 3 opponents they should (correctly) come to the conclusion that someone likely has a piece and that they have little or no FE. Additionally, since the pot is larger 4-way, it hurts you more the times everyone gets a free card, while HU or 3way you're usually pretty happy to let someone catch up to a worse pair.

So in summary, I would lead here as default, but check in this case because of the specific players in the hand...
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:46 PM   #5
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

So often in spots like this.... When you lead out and get called by anyone, the caller almost certainly would have bet if checked to.

I'm so much more likely to lead out with bottom pair here than top pair. Bottom pair is vulnerable, benefits from folds, and if raised, likely has 2-5 outs instead of 0-3. I never understand why people are in such a hurry to let everyone know that they have top pair and are sort of WA/WB in these spots.
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Old 10-23-2008, 05:52 PM   #6
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

In an aggro game it's a check and usually raise.
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:01 PM   #7
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

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Originally Posted by boc4life View Post
I never understand why people are in such a hurry to let everyone know that they have top pair and are sort of WA/WB in these spots.
we are not letting everybody know we have TP by leading here. However, we are letting everybody know that our equity is good. That means decent draws & decent pairs, but that doesn't mean they'll make good decisions and its not massively exploitable even if they are capable of using this information productively.

Also, I think leading with bottom pair sucks pretty bad here. I'd much rather check-and-see with that hand, usually planning to c/c...
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:43 PM   #8
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Tryp,

I value your posts a ton. In a sea of weak/tights on this forum, you are one of the few rational posters who gives very good, strong, aggressive, and sane advice.

That said, it seems you don't play much live midstakes. This probably helps explain why the games are so good, because there are very few players of your caliber in the games.

Trust me when I say that there are a ton of people who populate live 20/40 games that when they lead out on this flop, are telling you exactly that they have top pair. Alternatively, there are players who are telling you they have at least a set, and there are players who almost always are leading out here with a flush draw.

I know that optimally, we'll be leading out with a bunch of different things here, and of course everything is extremely situational. That doesn't mean in practice that the average 20/40 "pro" (Not a shot at you, Jesse. Just a shot at lol 20/40 pros everywhere) isn't a scared money robot who has a standard play for every situation so he can basically play in his sleep.

And if you're planning on c/cing one bet with bottom pair, there are plenty of situations where leading out with it is fine/best. People FOLD TOO MUCH at these stakes. People also don't play nearly aggressively enough at these stakes.

So to sum things up when you lead out bottom pair (Again, not always, but in proper spots. Depending on the pair itself, opponents, and your image). People will fold unpaired hands. "Good" players will assume you have top pair (Cuz that's what they would have) and not try to semibluff with draws or raise with less than top pair themselves. Asians will peel with one overcard to your pair and one undercard to the board as long as they have some kind of backdoor draw. Your situation will become crystallized. Firing a second bullet on the turn will often fold out better hands while continuing to get value from draws. The river becomes an easy c/c or c/f depending on board development and your opponent.

This is live 20/40 LHE.
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:47 PM   #9
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Because the pot is tiny you bet.
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:04 PM   #10
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

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Because the pot is tiny you bet.
I thought we should be more inclined to bet in a big pot?
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:07 PM   #11
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

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Originally Posted by sharpie View Post
I thought we should be more inclined to bet in a big pot?
+1?
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:25 PM   #12
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

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Originally Posted by The DaveR View Post
Because the pot is tiny you bet.
this is my favorite post of the day
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:36 PM   #13
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

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Originally Posted by boc4life View Post
Tryp,

I value your posts a ton. In a sea of weak/tights on this forum, you are one of the few rational posters who gives very good, strong, aggressive, and sane advice.

That said, it seems you don't play much live midstakes. This probably helps explain why the games are so good, because there are very few players of your caliber in the games.

Trust me when I say that there are a ton of people who populate live 20/40 games that when they lead out on this flop, are telling you exactly that they have top pair. Alternatively, there are players who are telling you they have at least a set, and there are players who almost always are leading out here with a flush draw.

I know that optimally, we'll be leading out with a bunch of different things here, and of course everything is extremely situational. That doesn't mean in practice that the average 20/40 "pro" (Not a shot at you, Jesse. Just a shot at lol 20/40 pros everywhere) isn't a scared money robot who has a standard play for every situation so he can basically play in his sleep.

And if you're planning on c/cing one bet with bottom pair, there are plenty of situations where leading out with it is fine/best. People FOLD TOO MUCH at these stakes. People also don't play nearly aggressively enough at these stakes.

So to sum things up when you lead out bottom pair (Again, not always, but in proper spots. Depending on the pair itself, opponents, and your image). People will fold unpaired hands. "Good" players will assume you have top pair (Cuz that's what they would have) and not try to semibluff with draws or raise with less than top pair themselves. Asians will peel with one overcard to your pair and one undercard to the board as long as they have some kind of backdoor draw. Your situation will become crystallized. Firing a second bullet on the turn will often fold out better hands while continuing to get value from draws. The river becomes an easy c/c or c/f depending on board development and your opponent.

This is live 20/40 LHE.
yeah I agree you make some pretty strong points regarding the play with bottom pair, and it should lead to the correct play being to bet the flop... however, i think especially since 4 people saw the flop in this case, that getting away from our hand cheap (comes back raised) or just peeling when its clear we're behind (bet-call-call) allows us to make the best FTOP poker decision more often in the long run ...

but i'm digging that line against 2 opponents in a live setting for the reasons you mention.

Anyway though, my thoughts regarding the play with TP/strong draws (i.e. anything we want to build a big pot with), is the same whether live or online. To sum that up simply, let them bet their whole range HU/3way before you raise for value/semibluff, and do the betting yourself against a larger field. And I really feel better about my oppoents facing a bet with hands like JT/87/A4, rather than counting on them to fire out into 3 ppl with them.


Also, even though I haven't played any live poker since July, I've still logged probably 100+ hours at diamond lils/mucks 20/40 over the past couple years.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:24 PM   #14
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Thanks for all the thoughts guys. Let's try to make this a play along. I elect to check and see, and Frank the Prop bets from UTG. Both other players fold, and now it's heads up. I call only, planning to donk non-club turns and the turn brings a small club that does not give me two pair. Now what? Donk anyway? Check/call? Check/raise seems like it just became a pretty bad idea right? For the record it was either the 5 or 6 of
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:53 PM   #15
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Go ahead and donk the turn never.
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:31 PM   #16
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Yeah I'd say you can now c/c c/f UI.


Also, hope it was obvious that I wasn't trying to disparage you, Tryp, with my comments about you not playing much live. Clearly you play in much tougher games than even the average live 20 game, and it seems you occasionally give opponents too much credit in your posts in this forum. No offense intended
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Old 10-23-2008, 09:45 PM   #17
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpie View Post
I thought we should be more inclined to bet in a big pot?
With a big pot you are more willing to potentially give a free card to try to protect your hand. Here your hand is strong, and you're indifferent to weak draws calling. When the pot is big you want 4d5d to fold.
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:56 AM   #18
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Re: TPNK in a tiny pot

I would bet with the intention of screwplaying turn if called heads up a lot.

Edit: They always are amazed at river when their KQ is good. Bastards.
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