20/40 live

UTG+1 limps. He's very loose pre flop, somewhat passive and is generally sticky. SB completes. He's tight pre flop and fairly straightforward but can get tricky with draws. I have 86o in the big and check my option.

Flop is 8d6d4c. SB bets and I raise, UTG+1 folds. Turn is 3h. SB checks and I bet. He raises. What's the play?

I usually just call here.

This, normally the best case scenario is he has a worse 2 pair but since he can also have sets or str8 just calling down unless unimproved is normal, maybe even fold if another 4 hits

I think folding ever in this hand here would be very bad. I'd put his (unweighted) range at something like:

83s/63s/43s/52s/75s/86s/84s/64s/44/98o/T8o/J8o/Q8o/K8o/A8o.

We could also maybe throw in some random combo draws like Q7s. I'm not sure if he would play 75o or 86o given that he is tight pre flop.

I don't really think it's too common to see someone bet out with a set or straight and then choose not to 3bet immediately on a wet board like this. Usually if people are betting out in a small pot like this with a super strong hand, they are looking to pile the bets in. I think it's a lot more likely then that he has a hand that has improved on the turn or one that was waiting for a safe turn card. Thus I'd say that hands like 52s/83s/63s/43s/A8o/K8o/Q8o should be weighted much more heavily than the others.

I would go ahead and 3bet here.

I would throw out all the 83 43 25 combos but add 99 and 10 10 into villians range if he is truly tight prob not playing the garbage hands in a small pot 3 ways pre. About 10 pct of the time he shows up with a flopped straight but most of the time we are ahead. Set of 3s beats us and makes sense but i think we are ahead of most hands if villian is truly straightforward. I guess if he is a true nit he could be waiting to see if flush hits when he only bet calls the flop.

I feel like call and raise good rivers is better than 3 bet here. But i might just call down.

this, but i'm only raising one of the four really good rivers

even against a draw, if we assume he fires the river when he misses, 3-betting the turn costs us money

That's true but we lose money when a bad river card causes him to check/call with a worse hand. I really don't think he's particularly likely to have a draw here.

Sure, but that's gonna be rare compared to the times we lose more money because he has a better hand.

I think where we disagree is the weighting on top pair hands. I don't think top pair takes this line all that often (A8 maybe, K8 not that often, Q8-T8 hardly ever). Plus we have an 8 blocker.

Yup, fair enough. I think you're right that it would probably be K8/A8 at worst (in terms of TP hands).

I really like what Frankie and DD have to say. The reason why I asked about this hand is I feel like I undervalued it after getting check raised. Good discussion.

I called and the river was a 9 of diamonds completing the flush and some straight draws on a final board of 86439. He checks to me. What now?

Bet unless when you say "can get tricky with draws" you mean he semi-bluffs the turn and checkraises the river when he gets there

I'm pretty torn on this river, our hand is certainly strong enough to bet vs most players but is he going to call us with 8x? can he even fold some 2p?

I don't mind a weak checkback - seeing his hand (that may fold) and not having to show our hand when we lose also has value - I am also assuming we would not be check/raised, which is a very nasty scenario for us

I would bet river because our hand is severely under-repped and I'd expect him to b/c with a set or straight.