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Old 04-21-2009, 01:13 PM   #1
Captain R
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Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Here's a hand I played yesterday that a couple of 2+2ers might have caught the end of. This is completely a preflop situation, so if that bores you move on to the next thread...

Live 20:
Jesse is in the BB, I'm in the SB.
3 fishies limp, I have QT in SB and just call. Jesse raises, the 3 fish call, I 3-bet, Jesse caps, 2 fish call (1 folds), I call.

So this is basically a 2-part question, the first LIMP and then the RE-RAISE.


LIMP:
1st time around, I limp. There are 3 fishy players and I probably have a small preflop equity edge, but if I raise I'm pretty sure Jesse (BB) folds at least 50% of the time. We do create 1 sb of dead money (which is nice), of which my equity is slightly more than 0.25 sb (split 4 ways).

If there were, say, 4+ limpers, I probably would have raised it. But even with the small equity edge, I don't like raising 4-way because I'm OOP and I oddly don't like having the initiative in a 4-way 9 sb pot OOP with a hand with no showdown value -- I almost prefer not having initiative. Heads-up or 3-way, initiative is great, but I feel it sucks 4-way and I'm not sure I can articulate why. We can check every flop we miss, but this allows our opponents to play perfectly postflop against us, nullifying our preflop equity edge (IMO). So I kind of felt those negatives balanced out our small equity edge.

7-way capped on the button with initiative is fuggin' awesome with QTs, but 4-way OOP in a 9 sb pot, I don't really like.

There is also the small probability Jesse 3-bets preflop if I raise, would which majorly be the suck as there's a good chance we would end up heads-up.


THE LIMP-RE-RAISE:
So once Jesse raises and everyone calls, I decided to 3-bet. I'm not sure this is correct, but with a good multiway implied odds type hand and a greatly decreased chance anyone folds, I'm much happier raising now. In a 5-way ginormous pot, initiative and position have very little value IMO, as this is pretty much all about going to showdown with the best hand.

I'm a dog vs. Jesse's range, but does that matter?

...

Thoughts on both actions? Is my thinking sound?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:32 PM   #2
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Pre flop limp is the way to go. I never raise here with QTs. You are OOP, even if you think you have a small equity edge I feel like being OOP is such a huge disadvantage that this spot is a losing proposition if you raise.

The limp re raise is not great imo. I make this play every now and again with like 6 or 7 players in the pot so with five players its probably ok. Your hand is flipped up though, everyone with a brain knows you have a gamble hand, when I see anyone who isn't a juiceball make this play I instantly know its like 78s or something. I do stuff like this so I think its ok b/c whatever I like to create an image of gambool, but others are going to say the limp reraise here blows just from a strategy point of view. Really I just hate being OOP.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:39 PM   #3
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Didn't Professor Ben have a thread several months back abotu why raising pre-flop here is correct?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:53 PM   #4
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

I always raise in this spot when I can use both my cards to make a royal.I honestly don't think it's close given that you have a certain equity edge, the other players in the pot are bad, and you have a chance to drive a solid player out, not only gaining the SB but also getting to contest the pot without him in it. Also showing up with this hand for a raise is better for your image than showing up with it for one bet.

The first reason is plenty though. I'd certainly reraise when it came back to me'but raising the first time is better by quite a bit imo. This play is also impossible to balance so Jesse knows exactly what you have.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:02 PM   #5
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

We are talking about a razor thin equity edge here OOP, and if Jesse has a real hand and we are dominated we are basically screwed for an equity point of view. We know we need to fit or fold the flop because we need a hand to win with 5 players so I just don't see how this is profitable?
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:27 PM   #6
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

[QUOTE=PokerJans;10145042]We are talking about a razor thin equity edge here OOP.[QUOTE]

No. We aren't.

Edit: Sorry, I just stoved it, and against wide fish limping ranges and a random hand in the BB we have like 30% equity, which is huge.

Last edited by JJH3984; 04-21-2009 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Smarmyness
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:32 PM   #7
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

It's not just a hot/cold equity edge, it's a hand that plays very well on a ton of different flop textures which will allow us to make good decisions against bad players. Folding out a good player and creating a little dead money and getting the initiative makes this a no brainer raise PF IMO.

As for the LRR... I see basically no value whatsoever. I don't feel much like busting out stove, but my guess is that once Jesse raises our equity will be a fair bit worse than when thinking about raising the first time around... he'll also be able to hand read pretty easily since you're never doing this with a very strong hand (I'd imagine?) and put your range basically 100% on suited connectory type stuff. So why not just let him keep the initiative and use your relative position to your advantage to try to c/r the field on a good flop.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:42 PM   #8
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
Here's a hand I played yesterday that a couple of 2+2ers might have caught the end of. This is completely a preflop situation, so if that bores you move on to the next thread...

Live 20:
Jesse is in the BB, I'm in the SB.
3 fishies limp, I have QT in SB and just call. Jesse raises, the 3 fish call, I 3-bet, Jesse caps, 2 fish call (1 folds), I call.

So this is basically a 2-part question, the first LIMP and then the RE-RAISE.


LIMP:
1st time around, I limp. There are 3 fishy players and I probably have a small preflop equity edge, but if I raise I'm pretty sure Jesse (BB) folds at least 50% of the time. We do create 1 sb of dead money (which is nice), of which my equity is slightly more than 0.25 sb (split 4 ways).

If there were, say, 4+ limpers, I probably would have raised it. But even with the small equity edge, I don't like raising 4-way because I'm OOP and I oddly don't like having the initiative in a 4-way 9 sb pot OOP with a hand with no showdown value -- I almost prefer not having initiative. Heads-up or 3-way, initiative is great, but I feel it sucks 4-way and I'm not sure I can articulate why. We can check every flop we miss, but this allows our opponents to play perfectly postflop against us, nullifying our preflop equity edge (IMO). So I kind of felt those negatives balanced out our small equity edge.

7-way capped on the button with initiative is fuggin' awesome with QTs, but 4-way OOP in a 9 sb pot, I don't really like.

There is also the small probability Jesse 3-bets preflop if I raise, would which majorly be the suck as there's a good chance we would end up heads-up.


THE LIMP-RE-RAISE:
So once Jesse raises and everyone calls, I decided to 3-bet. I'm not sure this is correct, but with a good multiway implied odds type hand and a greatly decreased chance anyone folds, I'm much happier raising now. In a 5-way ginormous pot, initiative and position have very little value IMO, as this is pretty much all about going to showdown with the best hand.

I'm a dog vs. Jesse's range, but does that matter?

...

Thoughts on both actions? Is my thinking sound?
I like the preflop plan because of the risk of the BB 3 betting and knocking out the field, leaving you heads up, out of position. If you complete and he raises then everybody will likely call one more.

It does not matter if you are a dog to Jesse's range. That is a concern in a heads up pot. In multi-way pots your concern is your equity against the field, not how you match up against one particular opponent's range. For example, 65s would have an even bigger equity edge against the field while being an even bigger dog to Jesse's range.

I actually don't like the cap as much here because it was a group of limpers, which makes your particular hand suffer from the effects of removal. Limpers tend to hold lots of hands like JT, QJ, T9, etc. This reduces your chances of making straights, trips, and two pair. I think you may even be an equity dog to the field here. Look at this on poker stove. Give the five limpers some reasonable ranges, 25% or so including connecting broadways, pocket pairs, suited connectors and some suited one gaps, etc. Give Jesse maybe an 8% or 9% range. The suited connectors 87s down to 54s seem to have good equity while the QJ, JT, T9, QT type hands don't look so good.

Last edited by emerson; 04-21-2009 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:53 PM   #9
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

OK, so I just stoved it vs.:

50% player
40% player
35% player
random

which is probably about right.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 19.100% 17.90% 01.21% 31515 2133.88 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
Hand 1: 20.022% 18.75% 01.29% 33004 2269.05 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+ }
Hand 2: 21.429% 20.12% 01.33% 35412 2338.80 { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 23.069% 21.92% 01.17% 38589 2052.05 { QcTc }
Hand 4: 16.380% 15.57% 00.82% 27408 1448.72 { random }
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:59 PM   #10
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJH3984 View Post

No. We aren't.

Edit: Sorry, I just stoved it, and against wide fish limping ranges and a random hand in the BB we have like 30% equity, which is huge.
That's exactly the reason I don't like re-raise. Once BB no longer has a random hand, our equity is not nealy that big. And then, there is a possiblity of cap that further screws us. The 2 fish callign double bet don't have "wide fish limping range", only one that folded did. I think that 2sb of dead money is insufficient benefit for the hand that is fit or fold.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:00 PM   #11
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

[QUOTE=JJH3984;10145547][QUOTE=PokerJans;10145042]We are talking about a razor thin equity edge here OOP.
Quote:

No. We aren't.

Edit: Sorry, I just stoved it, and against wide fish limping ranges and a random hand in the BB we have like 30% equity, which is huge.
OK 30% equity, which five handed is nice. I was guessing like 25%

As I mentioned, position is my concern mostly just for flop play. I feel like if we raise from the SB, BB folds, we still have three people in the pot who I am assuming never fold the flop, so the actual playability of your hand is going to be tough. I feel like I am just check folding a ton(60%-70%) of flops? Is that way off?
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:20 PM   #12
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

[QUOTE=PokerJans;10146210][QUOTE=JJH3984;10145547]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerJans View Post
We are talking about a razor thin equity edge here OOP.

OK 30% equity, which five handed is nice. I was guessing like 25%

As I mentioned, position is my concern mostly just for flop play. I feel like if we raise from the SB, BB folds, we still have three people in the pot who I am assuming never fold the flop, so the actual playability of your hand is going to be tough. I feel like I am just check folding a ton(60%-70%) of flops? Is that way off?
25% is probably way too much to pass up on anyway. I think if you're folding that many flops, you're folding too much in a bloated pot.

As far as the BB threebetting and everyone folding: 1. That's probably a fine thing to have happen 2. No one ever folds anything in this spot and 3. Not something we should worry too much about.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:22 PM   #13
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by pohuist View Post
That's exactly the reason I don't like re-raise. Once BB no longer has a random hand, our equity is not nealy that big. And then, there is a possiblity of cap that further screws us. The 2 fish callign double bet don't have "wide fish limping range", only one that folded did. I think that 2sb of dead money is insufficient benefit for the hand that is fit or fold.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? QTs is a powerful holding in this spot. Fish don't fold preflop once they put money in. Their ranges are exactly the same when they call two cold as when they limped.

Our hand isn't fit or fold. I have no idea what that means.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:28 PM   #14
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
OK, so I just stoved it vs.:

50% player
40% player
35% player
random

which is probably about right.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 19.100% 17.90% 01.21% 31515 2133.88 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
Hand 1: 20.022% 18.75% 01.29% 33004 2269.05 { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+ }
Hand 2: 21.429% 20.12% 01.33% 35412 2338.80 { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 23.069% 21.92% 01.17% 38589 2052.05 { QcTc }
Hand 4: 16.380% 15.57% 00.82% 27408 1448.72 { random }

I don't like these ranges. I think you need to give the limpers particular types of hands rather than using generic percentages. Hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ should not be in their ranges in most cases. None showed preflop strength. Hands like KT, QT, KJ, JT, other suited broadways, small and mid pocket pairs, suited connectors, any suited ace, etc, should mainly make up the range. Random is not good as it includes hands like 84o, 85o, 95o, etc. You will not see these hands and their inclusion artificially inflates your equity.

I didn't read the post to which you are responding and perhaps this does not pertain to the original conditions. But giving the 3 limpers about the ranges I suggested, removing pp JJ and higher from their ranges and discounting TT by 50%, I think you have about 18% equity in the 5 player pot. Fair value is 20% but you are getting a discount by being in the blind. I think you want to be in this pot and see the flop as cheaply as possible.

Last edited by emerson; 04-21-2009 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:53 PM   #15
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

three fishies limp and QTs is marginal? lol

i cant believe there are still debates about raising suited broadways in multiway pots.

how about we have a debate about whether or not to raise AJo on the button after 5 people limp? or something equally pointless.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:20 PM   #16
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

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Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
three fishies limp and QTs is marginal? lol

i cant believe there are still debates about raising suited broadways in multiway pots.
Why don't you suggest some reasonable ranges for the 3 limpers? You are expressing an opinion rather than attempting to find a correct answer. My answer here or elsewhere could well be incorrect. But I at least provide the rationale behind it. This conventional wisdom, lol, stuff contributes nothing and is rather childish.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:29 PM   #17
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

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Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
three fishies limp and QTs is marginal? lol

i cant believe there are still debates about raising suited broadways in multiway pots.

how about we have a debate about whether or not to raise AJo on the button after 5 people limp? or something equally pointless.
Sure, why not. According to Sklansky, AJo is a fold in this situation.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:36 PM   #18
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

emerson, you really think taking hands like big pocket pairs, big aces, etc out of the ranges DECREASES our equity? If you really think this, I don't know what to tell you. My guess is that you're ranges are far too narrow if you really think we don't have an equity advantage here. Why don't you put together typical fish limping ranges. My best guess would be like 88-, A9o-, A8s-, KTs-K4s, K9o-K7o, QTs-Q5s, Q9o, Q8o, J9s-J6s, J9o, J8o, T9s-T7s, T9o, T8o, 98s-96s, 98o, 97o, 87s, 86s, 87o, 86o, 76s, 75s, 76o, 65s, 65o, 54s, 43s.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:37 PM   #19
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

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Originally Posted by pohuist View Post
Sure, why not. According to Sklansky, AJo is a fold in this situation.
lol
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:15 PM   #20
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
three fishies limp and QTs is marginal? lol

i cant believe there are still debates about raising suited broadways in multiway pots.
Bear with me because, as noted several times, I suck at poker.

I think what I'm trying to get at here is if the preflop equity advantage is worth the postflop disadvantage OOP (reducing your hand range, out of position, fewer postflop options). To me, if our preflop advantage is 2%, I don't think this outweighs our postflop disadvantage.
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:21 PM   #21
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Nevermind... some more realistic ranges.

[/thread]

Hand 0: 18.812% 17.46% 01.35% 265311 20489.65 { 88-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, Q5s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 42s+, A9o-A2o, KJo-K7o }
Hand 1: 18.851% 17.50% 01.35% 265822 20580.82 { 88-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, Q5s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 42s+, A9o-A2o, KJo-K7o }
Hand 2: 18.819% 17.48% 01.35% 265474 20445.98 { 88-22, ATs-A2s, KTs-K2s, Q5s+, J7s+, T6s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 42s+, A9o-A2o, KJo-K7o }
Hand 3: 27.803% 26.93% 00.87% 409160 13240.82 { QcTc }
Hand 4: 15.715% 14.72% 01.00% 223587 15167.73 { random }
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:56 PM   #22
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
Bear with me because, as noted several times, I suck at poker.

I think what I'm trying to get at here is if the preflop equity advantage is worth the postflop disadvantage OOP (reducing your hand range, out of position, fewer postflop options). To me, if our preflop advantage is 2%, I don't think this outweighs our postflop disadvantage.
I'm telling you, Professor Ben made a thread about this. I think he used the same hand in the SB (maybe it was the BB) and the same number of limpers. I argued that a check is in order because of post flop positional disadvantage. Whatever fancy things PB said it that thread made me change my mind. I searched for it but can't find it.

Paging the Professor.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:01 PM   #23
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/53...-edges-360625/

I read it, I even replied to it, I just suck at poker. Back to small-stakes poker school for me.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:07 PM   #24
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

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Originally Posted by pohuist View Post
Sure, why not. According to Sklansky, AJo is a fold in this situation.
i agree and i think AQo is even worse and AKo is probably the worst.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:18 PM   #25
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Re: Preflop: limp re-raising with QTs in the SB

I guess his point is this.

1.) When you raise preflop witrh this hand, you are seizing you equity advanatage PREFLOP ====> + EV, $$$$$ etc.

2.) What you do preflop has nothing to do with what you do post flop. You have a whole different equity decision on the flop. If it comes out AK2sss of not your suit, you no longer have good equity and can c/f.
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