Live full 20 late night donkfest. Most pots are multiway, nobody folds to raises.

Hand 1.

3 limpers, hero limps MP JT, everybody else except BTN limps. 9 to the flop.

The flop is T96

SB leads, 1 call, hero raises, the field folds, SB 3 bets, caller folds. SB is a decent player.
Plan?

Hand 2.

Loose player raises UTG. His range is wide. Hero makes VERY loose call next in with 87 expecting m/way pot. 4 more players call. 6 to the flop.

The flop is T88
BB donks, PFR folds, hero raises, folded to BTN. BTN 3 bets, BB folds. BTN is an OK player.
Plan?

hand 1: sb has 2pr, a good t or the straight pretty much every time here unless he's seen you get pushed around and would play the nut/2nd nut draw like that. i doubt the latter. i'd call the 3b since you have the odds to turn 2pr+ or pickup additional outs and would love to fold the turn to the coming bet otherwise. i would love to fold the turn b/c i'd assume that no 'decent player' b/3b into a 9 person limped field on that board w/ <=t+gutshot. obv if you've seen him do anything remotely close to that, or give you an indication that he would (or that he'd play the nut/2nd nut draw like that), then its an easy calldown.

but i dont think the read on the sb is solid enough to know that for certainty. he could play jt like that and indeed 'possibly' t8 once he sees the field fold. he can also bet the turn and check the river and you're getting 5:1 on the call down from the turn. its probably close and we'd def have to look through the whole range to get the answer here but i think 1/6 in this spot is enough for me to reluctantly call down wanting to fold to the turn bet ui.

hand 2. i'd play this one fast here. 4bet the button and proceed. too drawy to go w/ the call/c'r imo.

Barron

I am pretty old school here:
Hand 1, you don't play JT hoping to hit top pair which is a disaster for JT. In my opinion you have to fold here.

Hand 2, why slow play? It is not no limit.

i fold both hands pf and i dont think its remotely close

as played call hand 1 and reevaluate turn; cap hand 2

Can't imagine for the jack and the ten preflop after 3 limpers especially if the players behimd me are loose passive. Id play the second hand as if id flopped trips on a dray board.

Would prob fold both pf, but I don't think the it hand is super bad pf or anything. Would call and fold all non-inproving turns in hand 1, and go ape**** on flop in hand 2.

So, it seems that all of you think that I am way ahead on the flop in Hand 2. An "OK" player can see the board just as well as anybody else. Let me ask you , what is he 3 betting with after there was a bet and a raise on a paired board?

Grunch.

Hand 1. I like limping pre. On the flop, raising seems good but calling has to be pretty close. I often mix it up here (sometimes flatting sometimes raising) with so many people and no redraws on this wet board our equity can't be that great. After 3 bet from 'decent' player I'd call down.

Hand 2. Pre has got to be a little if not a lot bad, but I have played in this kind of game before where everybody starts taking two to the face, so I guess if you're REALLY sure the table conditions are right it can't be too terrible, just dont make it a habit

After button 3 bet I'd just cap it and keep a bettin'

It is not a question of being "way ahead."

YOU played the hand and you HIT the hand, now you are NOT going to go into call down mode so quickly I hope?

TT is the only hand you fear at this point and if he has that he wants people calling and betting.

Stay aggressive in the hand. It is more about being ahead of ranges not being "way ahead." You don't have to be "way ahead" just ahead.

+1.

Hand 2 :
Absolutely terrible thinking.

The only hand I fear at this point is trip 8s w/a better kicker. From the preflop/flop play he has TT like never and T-8 is pretty unlikely. The question is whether he would 3 bet with any draw and if yes, how strong the draw has to be. Am I a favourite against OESFD?

Not really. You make decisions based on available information. Yes, any given hand can go against the run of play at the table, but if you stay there long enough the regular percentage plays will do the trick. If I make 6 of this calls and 5 of them end up in 6-way pots its not that bad. (Not that I will ever do this, but I can make 6 of this calls over the course of a 2-3 weeks when I find myself at a similar table -- its all one life-long session). Besides, this hand plays quite well against his range and is very easy to get away from.

Poker can become very boring if you always play correct and you are not getting paid if you are labeled as very tight. So, I would make 1 or 2 loose calls in a situation where I don't give up much and suddenly half of the table believes I am a live one.

The most likely hands with 8 would be 98 and 78, people seem to like J8 and A8 suited too.
Against 98 any high card you chop, any running pair or T you chop so I say you don't fear being outkicked too much, maybe it is 10% of your thinking.

I get it. I just don't think suited 87 has enough percentage behind it to make this play. Suited KQ absolutely. QJs definitely. I would raise an eyebrow at JTs, but acquiesce to the experienced players lwaping in to defend the play. But 87s is Just. Too. Weak.

There's too much that can go wrong after us. The players acting after us can be caught up in the Planet's Funniest Animals rerun on the plasma TV and fold their hands leaving you in the pot with the raiser and maybe one of the blinds. Passive the Clown could wake up with a big pocket pair, chase out some of the callers, making you play for 3 or 4 bets 4 ways rather than 2 bets 6 ways.

Hand 1 with its limped JTo is fine with me. But I think the first-in coldcall with 87s is terribad.

Would you coldcall a raise in this spot with suited 54? If not, why is 87 any better?

hand 1: sick spot, might be a fold. i assume he can have QJ though?

hand 2: i cap lead also, why don't you think you can play a draw like this?

Not to mention there are a couple massive draws he can have.

Pohuist, you are def getting better at poker analysis, but this post is not good. This isnt a 4/8 game where people cc with AK, or QQ because the flop might come down, right? If I am correct in my assumption then you are out of your mind if you think you can cc 78s 1st in, even if the players behind you are passive. First of all, you are oop, so you will be playing plenty of wa/wb situations sandwiched in between the original raiser and a bunch if people who probably share similar hand ranges to yours.
2nd, when you are playing in a game you deem passive there is no way to quantify the times that the players behind you will show up with a hand that they deem worthy of a 3bet. Its just not enough sample. Maybe this game is that easy, but you are always talking about the tricky lags that populate these games and they are pretty tough. Maybe all the lags took a night off.
Thirdly, your last statement is just rhetoric. There is a difference between concentrating on metagame and just plain leaking money away. You will not fool anyone by coldcalling a range first in with hands like 78s unless you are doing the same with hands like AA or AK, and in that case you are just hemorrhaging value. So why not just dump the 78s and get looser in position when you actually have an advantage?

It seems like you are trying to play better postflop, but you are going from one extreme to another.

I guess we are playing a different game. KQs and QJs are an insta-3 bet against this player (and many others). JTs can go either way -- I would probably 3 bet myself, but call is fine too against this line-up. 87s is the bottom of my range here.

Mitch and others, your analysis is spot on and I know all the things that can go wrong with this. I also know that this call should be done in position. It is a bad call and I think I wrote it in OP. However, (even severely outdated) HEPFAP recommends one or 2 loose calls per session. This is just one of them.

Now, imagine this. You sit at the table bored like there's no t-row not getting any cards and not playing a hand in 2 hours. So, you make this call, satisfy your burning desire to gamble and then you are good for another 2 hours. And then lo and behold -- you raise UTG with Aces, and people mutter something about 87 and call (6 of them), 4 call the flop, 2 the turn and one on the river. Ship it! Suddenly all the money you lost in that 4 hours and more are back in your stack. Just like it happened the other day.

Funny you should say this. I play in this casino every day and yet the only person I know at the table is PFR. No tricky LAGs, no TAGs, just your regular Saturday night players with different degrees of ******ation.

It all depends on whether we're playing in a Stoxtrader game or an Ed Miller game. Miller recommends cold-calling in loose-passive games with suited connected broadways because of the potential for luring in coldcallers with substandard hands after us. In tighter games, I want to 3-bet for the usual reasons, to isolate the raiser, to kill the blind money dead, etc. But in those loose-passive many-players-for-two-bets games, I keep cold-calling as an option. But not up front with pip cards. I thought the game you were describing was an Ed Miller game.

Man,you are in UTG+1,there are 7-8 players left to act who can actually wake up with a hand.It may well cost you two more bets to play;you need about 12-16 bets in the pot for each bet you throw in ,for this to show a profit.It is easy to work out the outcome in the long run.

Being in the blinds,LP where you already have an idea how the hand is going to develop and the amount of players already in,and I might agree.

As it is,it is wrong and unprofitable and,with all due respects,simply bad poker.

This is all true and maybe I am not adjusting right. OTOH, it is hard to get used to 3 betting p/f w/out Aces or Kings and something should be said for training oneself to do it so it becomes 2nd nature. In addition many people at this particular table would call 3 cold just as they would call 2 cold (they divide hands in 2 categories -- playable and not playable, if the hand is playable they play it, the number of bets/people, etc. doesn't enter the equation), so I am not sure 3 betting this, is a mistake anyhow.

Alek, you assume that I always throw good money after bad. Trust me, if I am there for a cap, the conditions are right.