Thoughts on river (or before). Also if you fold river what's th best hand you call with? Will post my thoughts later.

Some person I've never seen opens in MP I 3 bet JJ sb and bb calls. TT9 flopnk bet bb calls and MP tries to make it 4 bets (I think it's more likely he doesn't know the raise amount than he is trying some cunning bluff/angle but you never know).... we both call

Turn: TT9...9 obviously it gets checked through because why wouldn't it.

River Q... I check bb checks MP bets and I fold (I'd prob call KK)...

I call barring no reads, especially against a player you have no experience with. I've seen people betting an Ace here or a smaller PP that got counterfeited on turn and now is taking a stab at it on the river since everyone else checked twice. The bottom of my calling range is exactly JJ here. I call JJ+ here including AQ, KQ, QJ. The question to me would be do you call with A high? May sound spewy and the BB is a small concern, but I see small PP show up in villains hand here all the time. I mean, what else is he raising pre but not 3 betting pre, raising you on a flop of TT9 and then checking behind on turn, then betting the river? I am only concerned about AA, KK, and QQ (maybe a 9), and until I know how the person plays those against a SB 3bet preflop, then I am calling JJ+ and adjusting from there.

I never find these exploitable folds against randoms here. Shown too much silliness too often.

I think there are too many things working for you here. Instead of trying to put them into a coherent paragraph, I'm just gonna list them:

1) no 4 bet preflop

2) the "it's limit holdem and you're supposed to go for thin value" mentality that often leads to the flop raise with AK unimproved, and the like.

3) the "oh **** they called my flop raise so I check the turn" mentality that often leads to the turn check with AK unimproved, and the like.

4) you block straights.

5) the oft incorrect "I can't win this pot if I don't bet" mentality that often leads to a river bet with AK unimproved, and the like.

6) the unknown opponent random spew factor.

7) again, the "it's limit holdem and you're supposed to go for thin value" mentality that might lead to a bad bet with Ace high.

8) he probably has 22.

All this adds up to me not folding.

Was exactly my thinking, just done in a somewhat incoherent paragraph instead, lol.

(1) no 4 bet makes 9s, Ts, J8s, JQ more likely not less likely
(2) random 20 players don't raise the flop with AK after not calling ore flop ever. If he's going for "thin@ value it's with Qx
(3) agree this is possibly reason for checking, but it's gonna be with JQ type hands more than SK I think. Far more likely is the watch me trap them with my full house mentality because if I bet they are gonna fold since I obviously just filled up
(4) agree but that makes 9x and Tx way more likely
(5) this is possible but would expect to see 22-88 more often than AK (all of your points seem to rest on him not capping AK pre then raising the TT9 flop 3 ways which just doesn't make much sense)
(6) agree with you here
(7) you can say call because he's a random idiot and probably spewing then say call because he's some wizard playing 20-40 that calls his entire range preflop then goes for super thin value 3 ways with A hi on the river.
(8). He could and main reason to call.... but you seem to ignore our live tell which makes small pocket pairs unlikely. I think when they try to shovel money in flop like this it's usually gonna be a monster or a draw planning to check back turn. When he checks back it's usually a made full house or the draw. Small pairs usually bet turn and check back river.... when all the draws get there on the end and he bets it's tough to call

Not saying we should fold or that I'm not very wrong, I just like to make stupid explosive folds like this in a live game vs non experts

1) true, but it also makes 87s more likely.

2) ok your experience def trumps mine here.

I agree with everything else except to say that I think bluffing the turn with 22-88 multiway is really bad.

bf>cc>bc>cf


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I never fold this river - it's a bad card, but I think this is a counterfeited pair (or 87s) enough of the time to make this a call. But I could be convinced it's a fold.

Why BF river? He shouldn't call with worse and we let him off the hook when he has a counterfeit pair or busted draw.

To clarify, the flop went bet, call, call?

I bet 4 chips, the bb called 4 chips, MP tries to raise 16 chips and then we both call

At 8.5 to 1, I call here. This could be 88 77 etc

I threebet the flop but since nobody has mentioned that I must be out of touch.

Me too, but I'm probably checking or bet/folding turn if the BB calls two cold.

I usually do as well. I think the chip tell is what made this a more interesting decision for me. Given what happened I usually default to giving them credit for a hand until proven otherwise, then make a note.

I'd bet the turn again if bb calls two cold.

As far as relying on tells, it seems like this just be an inexperienced player who thought the betting limit was doubled on the flop, or just got confused? In which case, it's probably worse news than it normally would be, but not enough to get me to alter my play of the hand, except that...given that you're confused by his actions and think he might be a weak player, I might have to apply the "he could be on drugs" factor and call the river.

Normally, I think this river is a fold given the action.

This "tell" is observed on the fly one hand. You're just trying to use your gut, put him on a range, and then say you have a "tell". Tells work is far more involved in that. There's no reason to eliminate 22 here.

22 aggressively check-raises flop, passively doesn't bluff turn, but aggressively bluffs river? Lots of contradictory behavior there.

And this tell is common, it often means they are excited about their hand. Why would they be excited about deuces? Please it all together for us and explain why this tell and actions mean something else.

Oh accidentally putting too many chips is almost always a big pocket pair, subconsciously wanting to bet more combined with an unfamiliarity of the limits and live poker.

The lowest you'll see is two tens, and the tell is fairly strong. I'd say perhaps 90% strong. So, two kings has 3 JJ beat, 3 QQ beat, one loss to TT, one tie to KK, and 3 losses to AA, and so you count the pot and see if it's worth it or not.

i don't see how you could fold KQ, unless you're saying you never play it this way

i like the flop bc if we're intending to xr river on brick runouts. it's fun to valuecut with this line too, as aces generally just puke calls. =D I think b/3b is fine, but 3h i'm def wanting to balance my b/c range too~ vs an unknown i b/3b flop exploitatively because
1) free card plays are overused in this spot often
2) we can collude against the 3rd player and fold out some overs
3) i think people in general play paired flops extremely poorly, randomly raising Ax and weird pairs much too often.

vs a good player otf i like bet call, only because our range is pretty narrow pre here

as played on the turn, lol.
river I'm never check folding that hand. We would bet a rivered queen often... so when we check jacks is very high up in our range. I would expect the middle player to bet a queen mostly if he rivered it. I think making this fold is quite an exploitative decision and generally a mistake without reads. Against a free carding type player, absolutely not folding.