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Old 04-14-2017, 10:22 AM   #1
PaulValente
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Let's Spew!

UTG opens (7 handed), folded to me in BB, I call 4h5h.
Flop 9h3c2c: check, bet, call
Turn Jh: check, bet, raise, 3bet, call
River Qc: I donk

Villain is a balanced crusher. I don't like my call preflop, I'm confident in the flop x/c, and I'm content with the turn x/c but I'd be interested to hear thoughts on donking.

On the river I will be donking lots of hands for value, so should be donk bluffing sometimes, theoretically, and the nut low seems like the perfect candidate, but it's hard to come up with too many hands villain can actually fold. Thoughts?
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:44 AM   #2
mongidig
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Re: Let's Spew!

I think there will be some interesting conversation here.

Do you not like pre flop because he is a crusher or because you think you should fold to anybody from this position? I don't think this call necessarily bad. You know about were he is at pre but your range is wide to him.

I like flop.

I like turn.

I'm wondering if reallocating your river donk bet to a turn 4 bet may be better....now we're spewing!!!

Do you have any more relevant info like his turn 3 bet range that could help?
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:47 AM   #3
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Re: Let's Spew!

Fold pre like you said.

x/r flop and barrel off.

As played, the only thing this guy is going to fold is his bluffs that beat you. That seems like a pretty narrow range to target. I'm not really sure what you're repping here? I guess we play differently. I'm not delaying to the turn with much, so I can rep QJ and JcXc. You're delaying to the turn too much IMO, so you rep more, but strong value is going to want to x/r river vs. this villain. A donk is repping marginal value I'd think. If I were ever to play the hand this way to the turn, I'd just spew some more on the river and x/r.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:05 PM   #4
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Re: Let's Spew!

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Do you not like pre flop because he is a crusher or because you think you should fold to anybody from this position? I don't think this call necessarily bad. You know about were he is at pre but your range is wide to him.
I just think over pairs comprise too much of his range when he opens in early position, and I won't be able to make up much postflop like I would against weaker players. But I do think it's close.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:06 PM   #5
jdr0317
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Re: Let's Spew!

I agree that against stronger players, 54s is a fold from this spot. I'd probably also fold pre against chronic turn barrelers (like the >= 95% variety with like 20% or less open from this position). Against fish or more ABC players, I'd probably continue.

I like this hand as a choice for a donk bluff, but I'm not sure if I like the spot; villain's range should be full of strong hands here (weakest being like AJ?) and I'm not sure how much air villain would actually arrive to the river this way with. If he went nuts on the turn w/ QhTh, he's calling the river, so really only praying for a fold the times he has a naked Jack.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:09 PM   #6
PaulValente
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Re: Let's Spew!

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I'm wondering if reallocating your river donk bet to a turn 4 bet may be better....now we're spewing!!!

Do you have any more relevant info like his turn 3 bet range that could help?
Hmmm. I hadn't considered the 4bet, I'll have to think more about it. Villain is balanced and aggressive and is capable of 3betting thinly for value and with semi-bluffs.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:13 PM   #7
Munga30
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Re: Let's Spew!

Not sure I get flop check call either. villain should double barrel frequently on this texture. But I brought along all these over pairs it makes me sad to wait with them. How much different does this hand go if villain opens cut off?
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:14 PM   #8
PaulValente
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Re: Let's Spew!

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x/r flop and barrel off.

I guess we play differently. I'm not delaying to the turn with much, so I can rep QJ and JcXc. You're delaying to the turn too much IMO, so you rep more, but strong value is going to want to x/r river vs. this villain. A donk is repping marginal value I'd think. If I were ever to play the hand this way to the turn, I'd just spew some more on the river and x/r.
Yeah, I'm delaying to the turn a lot. Probably too much. I'm donking this river a lot though because I think he has to check back a lot of his turn value range and doesn't have many bluffs on this specific river card.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:45 PM   #9
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Re: Let's Spew!

I don't like pre-flop and don't like the river. 2 out of 4 ain't bad though.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:49 PM   #10
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Re: Let's Spew!

Pre flop isn't some kind of huge leak or something. If villain was one seat later, I call for sure, so it's very close.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:57 PM   #11
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Re: Let's Spew!

River donk is good with where this hand fits into your range vs this player. I just think a river x/r will generate more folds.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:04 PM   #12
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Re: Let's Spew!

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River donk is good with where this hand fits into your range vs this player. I just think a river x/r will generate more folds.
To be fair, a donk just has to work ~ 9.8% of the time on the river to break even, while a xr will have to work around 16.3%. Against the range of hands I'd expect villain to bet, I'm not sure if xr will generate enough extra folds for the added risk.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:16 PM   #13
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Let's Spew!

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
To be fair, a donk just has to work ~ 9.8% of the time on the river to break even, while a xr will have to work around 16.3%. Against the range of hands I'd expect villain to bet, I'm not sure if xr will generate enough extra folds for the added risk.


Too much math IMO Let's Spew!. In this spot x/r is much scarier than a donk from villains perspective. I'm likely to call the turn 3 bet and x/r the river with my strongest hands vs this player. If he were a spewy fish, I'd be more apt to just 4 bet the turn with my very best hands. What I'm getting at is that a river x/r effectively represents a stronger range than a river donk and that's why I think it should generate more folds.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:19 PM   #14
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Re: Let's Spew!

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Too much math IMO Let's Spew!. In this spot x/r is much scarier than a donk from villains perspective. I'm likely to call the turn 3 bet and x/r the river with my strongest hands vs this player. If he were a spewy fish, I'd be more apt to just 4 bet the turn with my very best hands. What I'm getting at is that a river x/r effectively represents a stronger range than a river donk and that's why I think it should generate more folds.
OTOH if villain is smart, he'll know you're repping like nothing but flushes and maybe KT/T8, hence why I don't think river xr gets through very often when he does bet.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:29 PM   #15
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Re: Let's Spew!

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Pre flop isn't some kind of huge leak or something. If villain was one seat later, I call for sure, so it's very close.
In a sense, pre-flop can't be THAT big a leak, because you are only putting in 22 percent of the pot (a little more, actually, because of the rake) and even small suited connectors are going to have reasonable equity against all but the tightest raisers 5 off the button.

But in another sense, yeah, I actually think it's a significant leak, both for what it is and what it represents. You are going to be out of position against a strong range, and there's going to be a boatload of RIO's in situations where you make one pair.

More importantly, I think this probably correlates with other, bigger leaks. Folding something like this is a sign that a player is disciplined and patient.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:33 PM   #16
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Re: Let's Spew!

I'd fold preflop.

As played I'd check raise the flop 100% with this hand.

I like the turn as played.

I'd check fold the river.

Quote:
I'd probably also fold pre against chronic turn barrelers
Nice observation.
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Old 04-14-2017, 02:20 PM   #17
mongidig
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Re: Let's Spew!

I change my answer. I would CR flop in general against this tighter range. I would delay if it was rainbow. I would wait for the turn if he had a wider range.
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Old 04-14-2017, 02:25 PM   #18
Frankie Fuzz
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Re: Let's Spew!

I think pre flop is fine though it's just a guess. I'd fold 43s.

I think your flop play is fine but with the bdfd I think you can sometimes c/r, depending on how many club draws you want to c/r (which will depend a lot on your pre flop tightness with middling suited hands and also on how many value hands you can c/r on the flop)

Turn I think is fine. You can maybe cap some small percentage of the time with 5h4h or Th8h, depending on how many value hands you have in your turn capping range.

River - if you have a donking range, then this is a great donk. The question is, should we have a donking range? I think OP makes a reasonable argument that we should since he claims that villain should check behind a lot of hands that would call a bet. OP, could you list the hands in your river donking range? I am thinking QJ and some hands like 8c7c, Tc8c, Th8h that didn't c/r flop. Maybe KhTh?

Do you have a river c/r range?

Last edited by Frankie Fuzz; 04-14-2017 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 04-14-2017, 02:59 PM   #19
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Let's Spew!

If Paul waits until the turn with most hands shouldn't he wait until the turn here too? A good player is the only kind youre worrying about balancing a range for anyway. I kinda like the hand as played though i would just xr flop and I feel like it works less than the 1 in 10 needed to break even. I think the river donk almost always gets snapped off.

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Old 04-14-2017, 03:42 PM   #20
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Re: Let's Spew!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
In a sense, pre-flop can't be THAT big a leak, because you are only putting in 22 percent of the pot (a little more, actually, because of the rake) and even small suited connectors are going to have reasonable equity against all but the tightest raisers 5 off the button.
This is a bad way to think about PF. Even 27o has more than 22% against a (10%) range. PF is about playability, not hot/cold equity. I do agree that it's close.


Whether to mostly delay or mostly fastplay flop depends on personal style. It doesn't make sense to espouse one philosophy over the other IMO. Just gotta balance and have a plan on how to navigate future streets.

In my experience, most 'good' players barrel turn too much, value-owning themselves with Ace-high bets. BB's range should be mostly pairs, then FDs and little air. That makes delaying more attractive.
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:10 PM   #21
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Re: Let's Spew!

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
OTOH if villain is smart, he'll know you're repping like nothing but flushes and maybe KT/T8, hence why I don't think river xr gets through very often when he does bet.


Disagree. Paul can rep 22, 33, 99, JJ, QQ, KT, 8T and whatever else since he delays until the turn with basically all of his flopped value hands.
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:32 PM   #22
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Re: Let's Spew!

I disagree with every street. Preflop I would rather play a multi way pot than heads up against a player I respect out of position. If I was going to play it I would 3 bet (maybe 15 pct and fold the rest)
On the flop I would check raise or lead out and hope to put a 3 bet in.
Turn i prob ck call you have enough outs to a strong hand to see river but this board has hit the majority of villian's range there is a very low probability of him folding at any point. River I don't see him ever folding to a donk bet or c/r the board has hit 90 pct of his utg raising range at this point AK hh or cc still pays off one bet. Maybe he has 78 cc but how often from under the gun.
I very much like the title this is definitely spewtastic.
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Old 04-14-2017, 05:17 PM   #23
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Re: Let's Spew!

You should probably fold preflop, although in practice I never do.

I would c/r the flop 100% of the time and probably 4bet around 70% of the time. You have the nut low and have a ton of fake outs. You will also get to 3bet an Ax turn a lot if you c/r, but you might not get to if you c/c the flop.

I don't like the turn/river line. Usually I would just give up when he 3bets the turn, but if you want to re-rebluff, I would do it by 4betting the turn rather than by donking this river. Really, though, you should give up. As Jesse always tells me, you don't get to win every hand.
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Old 04-14-2017, 05:19 PM   #24
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Re: Let's Spew!

In my experience, players are more likely to fold to a river bet than they are to a river/check raise after they have bet and the pot is larger.
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Old 04-14-2017, 05:42 PM   #25
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Re: Let's Spew!

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As Jesse always tells me, you don't get to win every hand.
QFT.
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