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Old 11-01-2008, 04:50 AM   #1
jesse8888
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Kind of for fun

Live 20/40 that is pretty good. Two limpers who are not particularly good and end up not mattering limp. 2p2er button raises. He is solid, playing a little above his comfort level, and not very likely to screw around (although it's of course possible). I call the big blind with K9o. Both limpers call, and we're off.

8 small bets, four handed

985 with a flush draw

checks to the button who bets, I raise, limpers clear out, button calls


6 big bets, heads up

5, no flush

I bet, button now raises, I call.


10 big bets, heads up

K, no flush

I check and call.


Questions:

1. Anybody fold preflop?

2. I should probably fold the turn, right? I'm getting 9:1 with top pair and 5 outs most of the time....but by most I mean like 60% of the time.

3. What are the pros/cons of button playing his over pairs this way? Specifically, which of TT, JJ, QQ, KK, and AA would you be inclined to play this way?

4. Does anybody get fancy on the river here? Button is betting everything in his range except the AQ and QJ flush draws.
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:29 AM   #2
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Re: Kind of for fun

I'd c/r river and I know every onliner is going to go ape**** but yeah I'm folding to a 3b.

-2p2ers rarely put in big river bluffs in live games

-kid's playing over his comfort level

-if he's 2p2 he's still betting TT+ here

- scared money tags rarely(but certainly not never) show up with sevens here


I'd never fold PF. overall this hand is pretty w/p, river's debatable and there's a good chance I'm wrong anyways. I doubt anyone is going to fault your line.

Live against an avg. 2p2er I'd play all overpairs like he did because I rarely get in to raising wars live and people slow the **** down so much anyways that it's not like I'm missing a ton of value by not 3betting the flop.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:30 AM   #3
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Re: Kind of for fun

1) I would definitely not fold pf
2) Playing vs a TAG with scared money. A raise represents something better than TP. I would fold to the turn raise
3) If I were the villian, I would play any overpair or set the same we he did. I would not elimnate pocket 99 or 88 from his holdings. More likely TT+ though. Could of also has AJs+ (or A9) with flush draw at this point.
4)I don't strongly disagree with a c/c on the river, but I probably would have c/r and felt like ******* if he 3bet.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:58 AM   #4
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Re: Kind of for fun

I would fold the turn. You need 9:1 all the time to draw out. He should be raising TT+ here but if he is out of his comfort range his range is probably weighted higher which makes things even worse for you.

When I think it all the way thru the river is a raise but I'd prob miss it at the table cause I'm still acting to fast most of the time and I suck.
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Old 11-01-2008, 04:17 PM   #5
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Re: Kind of for fun

I would fold preflop. If I got to the turn I'd be sure I should fold but might have a tough time doing it. If I made it to the river I would probably bet/call, possibly check/raise, check/calling would be my last choice.
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Old 11-01-2008, 04:25 PM   #6
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Re: Kind of for fun

I think the turn is razor thin, but you just barely have enough equity if we give ourselves 1 BB of implied odds on the river (we are just about 10:1 against 99-AA).

On the river I like a c/r. We are now something like a 70/30 favorite against his range, and I think he's paying off with everything. We should fold to a 3-bet, of course, but in practice I also light money on fire and call anyways. Even so, though, I don't think we are getting 3-bet by anything less than 99, so it won't happen very often.
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:33 PM   #7
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Re: Kind of for fun

Just fold on the turn after he raises unless there is some possibility of leveling.
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:38 PM   #8
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Re: Kind of for fun

Fold preflop, fold the turn.
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Old 11-01-2008, 06:45 PM   #9
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Re: Kind of for fun

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Originally Posted by HammerinHank View Post
I would fold the turn. You need 9:1 all the time to draw out. He should be raising TT+ here but if he is out of his comfort range his range is probably weighted higher which makes things even worse for you.

When I think it all the way thru the river is a raise but I'd prob miss it at the table cause I'm still acting to fast most of the time and I suck.
meant to say you need 5 outs all the time, not 9:1
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Old 11-01-2008, 07:56 PM   #10
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Re: Kind of for fun

I think you have too much hand to be folding preflop

I think the pot is too big to be folding on the turn

I guess I'd probably c/r/f the river against this guy.
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:33 PM   #11
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Re: Kind of for fun

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I think the pot is too big to be folding on the turn
Do you not think you are behind?
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:50 PM   #12
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Re: Kind of for fun

ldo he's not raising AK here but I'm sure if you stoved 77-AA we're getting decent equity
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Old 11-01-2008, 09:25 PM   #13
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Re: Kind of for fun

are hands like 65s, 87s, 98s in his range?

should we be discounting big hands like sets bc he didn't fastplay the flop?
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:42 PM   #14
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Re: Kind of for fun

People often overthink things a ton when they move up limits.

I'm not saying he has AK/77/whatever other weird stuff you're ahead of all the time, but with the size of the pot, along with the several likely outs we have, along with the fact that most of the time if someone is going psycho with something stupid like 77 and is trying to play well, they'll likely check behind the river, because they were trying to "get the maximum from JT"...I dunno, I'm not ready to fold TP2K.

I dunno, I just wouldn't want to make it correct for my opponents to wait for the turn to semibluff a lot, so when the decisions are close to 0EV, I'd shade towards showing down rather than making a bigtime laydown.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:17 AM   #15
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Re: Kind of for fun

oh the final board is 9855K I thought it was 9856K.

hm

I still play it the same but I'm a lot less inclined to c/r the river. IIt's not a total given that he bets TT here, and we kinda end up pwning ourselves vs his AA.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:39 AM   #16
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Re: Kind of for fun

pf,flop,turn are fine standard imo

river is a super ez c/r and I would fold to a 3bet
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:45 AM   #17
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Re: Kind of for fun

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oh the final board is 9855K I thought it was 9856K.
Oh snap, I made the same mistake.

That makes the turn a lot closer; I'm not so confident it's a fold anymore.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:34 AM   #18
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Re: Kind of for fun

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaming_mouse View Post
are hands like 65s, 87s, 98s in his range?

should we be discounting big hands like sets bc he didn't fastplay the flop?
no and no
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:39 AM   #19
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Re: Kind of for fun

I'm surprised by the people who want to check/raise the river. I have a good bit of history with this player and I'm pretty sure he won't pay off a check/raise with much of anything. I guess maybe it's a "you had to be there" sort of thing. I actually was even afraid to bet out because I thought he might fold some stuff, but in retrospect that was pretty foolish. My main concern was that I'd get raised if I bet and wouldn't be very happy about it.

Villain, if you'd like to chime in here feel free
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Old 11-02-2008, 05:44 PM   #20
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Re: Kind of for fun

i fold preflop and on turn
i bet/call river given flushdraw on flop

- i wrote this before you said you were afraid he would fold the river if you bet, which i hope is not true for his sake, but would lean toward folding to more resistance on the end, so i would bet/fold instead
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:12 AM   #21
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Re: Kind of for fun

1. Anybody fold preflop?

Yeah, me. King-little (and I include 9 in "little") is a hand that can lose a lot of money.
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:18 AM   #22
Tryptamean
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Re: Kind of for fun

Quote:
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1. Anybody fold preflop?

Yeah, me. King-little (and I include 9 in "little") is a hand that can lose a lot of money.
this is soooo weak tight .. sure we are dominated sometimes, but remember that we will have him dominated a fair amount as well.... and regardless of that we are getting an excellent price to see a flop + there are already 2 bad players in the pot
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Old 11-03-2008, 10:39 AM   #23
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Re: Kind of for fun

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Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
this is soooo weak tight .. sure we are dominated sometimes, but remember that we will have him dominated a fair amount as well.... and regardless of that we are getting an excellent price to see a flop + there are already 2 bad players in the pot
What hands does a TAG playing out of his comfort zone raise two limpers with that is "dominated" by K9? (Domination meaning a better King or a better 9 right? Because this type of player is not going to be the type to raise K8s or J9s or 10,9s.)
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Old 11-03-2008, 11:01 AM   #24
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Re: Kind of for fun

We have the limpers dominated, who will limp with small suited (and offsuit) kings and lots of 9x hands.
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Old 11-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #25
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Re: Kind of for fun

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
I'm surprised by the people who want to check/raise the river. I have a good bit of history with this player and I'm pretty sure he won't pay off a check/raise with much of anything. I guess maybe it's a "you had to be there" sort of thing. I actually was even afraid to bet out because I thought he might fold some stuff, but in retrospect that was pretty foolish. My main concern was that I'd get raised if I bet and wouldn't be very happy about it.

Villain, if you'd like to chime in here feel free
Not sure what to add. I would not have paid off a river c/r. When seeing your hand I was surprised you didn't c/r the river.
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