Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-23-2012, 09:20 PM   #1
armor32
Pooh-Bah
 
armor32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Verifying chips
Posts: 4,446
I "got there", but how much do I like it?

60-120 at Commerce, 5 handed late night game. Villain (UTG) is a good Asian TAG, I think he is a pro, might be a poster here, but I don't know who. We don't have a lot of history except a few 40 sessions we played before. I never saw him capping HU OOP before and don't know what his range looks like in this spot. Also, FWIW, I think he hates me.

He opens, I 3! red sevens next in, blinds fold, he 4 bets and I call
Flop 8J3hhs and I call his c-bet
Turn is another low heart (below 7) he bets quickly and I call quickly, as well
River is the fourth heart, low card again (no straights possible), he now checks.

First question about the turn - in absence of a good read on his preflop 4bet range, was my call correct?
Second question about the river - what is optimal here? I think he is good enough to bluff kr me here as well as to properly balance this kr with his value range.
I really need to play with stove here to see how much the turn heart improves my hand vs various possible cap ranges that villain may have...

Last edited by armor32; 11-23-2012 at 09:34 PM.
armor32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 01:12 AM   #2
ninefingershuffle
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,636
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Played fine thus far now value bet because he calls with far far worse.
ninefingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 01:33 AM   #3
Six Finger Nate
old hand
 
Six Finger Nate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,622
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Given the read you provide, river should be bet/call
Six Finger Nate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 02:29 AM   #4
MrCartmanez
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 162
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

i agree with betting for value (and calling, if he can bluff c/raise) as a default. from a balance point of view i wonder if checking is ok here, because

- we probably can't vbet all heart combos in our range unless we turn a lot of other hands into bluffs, and 7h is one of the worst hands that we can 3bet pre.

- this opponent who is good may c/c stuff like 9h9/ThT and also c/f with Ahi or worse without a heart, and possibly c/f some non-heart made hands because so much of our range that can call the turn contains a heart.
MrCartmanez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 08:51 AM   #5
swirlyrodriguez
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 42
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Only heart hands you worry about are the ones that just beat you, and only certain players check in that spot. The fact he bluff cr's gives you extra value, balances the times he cr's the Ah (assuming no one really cr's k and q here, which is fairly safe imo) and he'll pay off with almost all good non-flush hands.

1. This has to be correct...good player (scottish begby voice: or da so called good playah) that is c-betting when he has the lead vs. your probably wide pf 3-bet, call pf, call flop. . . he's betting, you have a pair and a heart.

2: re: studying oop hand ranges. "I really need to play with stove here to see how much the turn heart improves my hand vs various possible cap ranges that villain may have..." how would this change your approach to how the hand played out?
swirlyrodriguez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 12:25 PM   #6
Munga30
veteran
 
Munga30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sacking up and saying thank you.
Posts: 2,114
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCartmanez View Post
i agree with betting for value (and calling, if he can bluff c/raise) as a default. from a balance point of view i wonder if checking is ok here, because

- we probably can't vbet all heart combos in our range unless we turn a lot of other hands into bluffs, and 7h is one of the worst hands that we can 3bet pre.

- this opponent who is good may c/c stuff like 9h9/ThT and also c/f with Ahi or worse without a heart, and possibly c/f some non-heart made hands because so much of our range that can call the turn contains a heart.
Good insights here. I think a good villain should check 100% of their range on this river unless they expected a bet to induce a lot of spew. Is the Jh on board? That's probably important. Can we river a set? Probably important too.

Just handwaving, I would bet OP's hand, our worst flush, and bluff my no heart 99, TT. I would fold our hand as we'll have plenty of better to bluffcatch but I don't know where the line is between bet-fold and bet-call.
Munga30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 02:35 PM   #7
ninefingershuffle
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,636
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

I dont think i would bluff anything that i could showdown.
ninefingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 03:21 PM   #8
ninefingershuffle
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,636
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

I dont think i would bluff anything that i could showdown.
ninefingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 05:47 PM   #9
Slide
old hand
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,562
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Folding turn seems pretty bad. If you can't continue on this turn, you should just fold the flop, imo. Your basically saying his range is JJ+ w no AK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCartmanez View Post
- we probably can't vbet all heart combos in our range unless we turn a lot of other hands into bluffs, and 7h is one of the worst hands that we can 3bet pre.
We don't need to have very many bluffs at all before it becomes correct for villain to bluff catch widely. Pot is relatively big at this point.
Slide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 06:29 PM   #10
private joker
Most Definitely
 
private joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Am I the boxer or the bag?
Posts: 25,244
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32 View Post
I never saw him capping HU OOP before
That's because there's no cap HU at Commerce.

FWIW I would check this river behind because he can't be expecting you to bluff given the action so far, so he would be good enough to fold non-flushes a lot of the time. That means if you're getting called, it's by a hand that beats you. Then there's the problem of getting checkraised.
private joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 08:20 PM   #11
armor32
Pooh-Bah
 
armor32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Verifying chips
Posts: 4,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by private joker View Post
That's because there's no cap HU at Commerce.
My apologies for the lack of rigor. I meant, didn't see him 4 betting.
armor32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 12:56 AM   #12
MrCartmanez
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 162
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

agree that we don't need many bluffs compared to value hands because of pot odds. haven't done the combos but bluffing 99/TT no heart and vbetting all heart hands sounds like a reasonable ratio.

slightly generalizing, it appears hard to find hands to turn into river bluffs that call but don't raise the turn (unless we peel with stuff like AK/AQ no heart), which might be one reason not to vbet all heart-containing hands.
MrCartmanez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 02:41 AM   #13
Tryptamean
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,842
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

im sure as hell calling the turn w AK and definitely bluffing this river when he checks.

betting TT/99 w no heart would be nearly pointless imo
Tryptamean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 06:37 AM   #14
level below
centurion
 
level below's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The paint
Posts: 123
Serious question. If he's check/raising a lot of things and check/folding a bunch of other things, can't we just say there's no right answer here?



I'd check.
level below is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 10:49 PM   #15
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

you've played the hand perfectly so far. i think the river is actually pretty thin if you're actually up against a winning professional, but betting feels right to me.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 10:59 PM   #16
Captain R
Wot
 
Captain R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: people talking without speaking
Posts: 7,177
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

The board is J83? Villain should be insta-betting A/K and maybe the Q as well, and he maybe/probably doesn't 4-bet TT/99 preflop. This seems like an easy value-bet to me.
Captain R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 11:00 PM   #17
Paul Valente
banned
 
Paul Valente's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Villain
Posts: 4,925
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

I haven't thought about the specifics yet but there's 7.75BB's in the pot, so we need to be vbetting pretty wide when checked to here.
Paul Valente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 03:58 PM   #18
ChuckFinley
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 71
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swirlyrodriguez View Post
Only heart hands you worry about are the ones that just beat you, and only certain players check in that spot.
IDK I think big red pairs are something to worry about because he could just be like "what's he calling w/ on the turn, he's gonna bet if I check". I agree though in that I c/r rivers out of tempo more than most but it's hard to pull off in rhythm with like Ahks here when you've been betting with the worse hand & suddenly 'get there' as showdown becomes really embarrassing after the check/check...anyone else feel this way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
you've played the hand perfectly so far. i think the river is actually pretty thin if you're actually up against a winning professional, but betting feels right to me.
Yah, every instinct says bet I'm not sure it's correct vs this player.
ChuckFinley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 04:34 PM   #19
armor32
Pooh-Bah
 
armor32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Verifying chips
Posts: 4,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckFinley View Post
Yah, every instinct says bet I'm not sure it's correct vs this player.
Which is exactly the point of the OP. I agree with Jesse this is thin/close, so I don't really care in the end of the day.
armor32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 04:46 PM   #20
MarkD
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,220
Re: I "got there", but how much do I like it?

In section 4.1 (page 16) of the paper, "UNIFORM(0,1) TWO-PERSON POKER MODELS" Ferguson supplies a graph for optimal play for two players in a two bet maximum game. Of course this graph can also be found in Phillip Newall's book, The Intelligent Poker Player, and I think the regions displayed in this graph are interesting.

For instance, in this specific hand, I assume that if we bet and get check raised we are not going to fold and thus this puts us in the Bet-Call region which is an entire region away from the check behind region and thus this appears to be an easy value betting hand for us.

I think hands that we could / should be bet folding on this river are hands like TPTK or two pair.
MarkD is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online