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Old 04-30-2017, 01:42 PM   #1
jdr0317
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I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

4 handed live 40/80.

Villain is an old school reg whom I've played a ton with. Is prone to fancy playing, especially with strong hands, and does check back flop a fair amount (which makes me think I should be finding more three bets, and obviously include this hand). Has some history of mildly overplaying value against me. Should know I've been fairly sticky against him as well.

I have K K BB.

Villain opens CO, I just call BB

Flop (2.25 BB): Q74r

I check, he bets, I raise, he calls

Turn (4.25 BB): 6 putting two spades

I bet, he raises, I 3 bet, he calls

River (10.25 BB): 2c

I bet, he raises, I sigh fold.
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Old 04-30-2017, 01:51 PM   #2
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Sweet thread title. Villian can't be overplaying AQ v your AQ here?
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:07 PM   #3
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Is the queen a spade? I'd call and expect to lose to QQ, AA, and 77 which would all just be coolers. If fancy playing means calling all these hands in position to a turn 3 bet and raising all rivers, you migggght be able to find a fold but I wouldn't feel good about it. He only needs to raise his AQs, A5s combos for this to be profitable. Also you should have some bluffs on the turn, so you can fold those hands to a river raise and call with KK.
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:31 PM   #4
jdr0317
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Sweet thread title. Villian can't be overplaying AQ v your AQ here?
Possibly, but that would involve an old school live player putting 5 bets in on big streets for value with TPTK, which would seem like more than a slight overplay given how I can have a ton of strong hands here.
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Old 04-30-2017, 02:33 PM   #5
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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Is the queen a spade? I'd call and expect to lose to QQ, AA, and 77 which would all just be coolers. If fancy playing means calling all these hands in position to a turn 3 bet and raising all rivers, you migggght be able to find a fold but I wouldn't feel good about it. He only needs to raise his AQs, A5s combos for this to be profitable. Also you should have some bluffs on the turn, so you can fold those hands to a river raise and call with KK.
Queen was a spade I'm fairly sure.

Against this particular opponent I'm not sure how many bluffs I have on the turn 6. Maybe if I decided to xr flop with K5ss exactly? I'm exploitatively value injected here.
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Old 04-30-2017, 04:53 PM   #6
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Couldn't villain also have kk? Against an fps-prone opponent I don't like river, we could always check/call.
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Old 04-30-2017, 04:57 PM   #7
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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Couldn't villain also have kk? Against an fps-prone opponent I don't like river, we could always check/call.
Why in the world should I check river? If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't three bet the turn.
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Old 04-30-2017, 05:56 PM   #8
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

If you b/f kings here, I'm gonna raise bluff you a ton.

love it when people go for thin value with big hands, then fold vs river raises! free big pots ftw
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:22 PM   #9
jdr0317
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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If you b/f kings here, I'm gonna raise bluff you a ton.
Hence why I wouldn't do it against you
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:24 PM   #10
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Wow. It just seems so bad to 3 bet turn, lead on the river and fold I'm nearly speechless. Literally never tell anyone you play with on a regular basis about this hand. You will be setting yourself up to be exploited mercilessly.
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:54 PM   #11
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

How did the river change anything?
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Old 04-30-2017, 06:54 PM   #12
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

I have to ask... given you didn't re-raise pre flop there is no chance he has AQ and is putting you on KQ QJ etc. There is no chance of AK spades in his hand or straight draw/ flush draw combo on turn. There is no chance he has KK also? Finally I would want to see my opponents holdings for future encounters. This is the type of hand that will be insightful and worth a bet, not to mention if you have the best hand occasionally it is a clear call. Most would check call river obv you feel strongly against but I think you would have a hard time finding anyone who thinks folding makes sense. Not to mention it is 4 handed!
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Old 04-30-2017, 07:58 PM   #13
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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Originally Posted by Omahaisbetter View Post
I have to ask... given you didn't re-raise pre flop there is no chance he has AQ and is putting you on KQ QJ etc. There is no chance of AK spades in his hand or straight draw/ flush draw combo on turn. There is no chance he has KK also? Finally I would want to see my opponents holdings for future encounters. This is the type of hand that will be insightful and worth a bet, not to mention if you have the best hand occasionally it is a clear call. Most would check call river obv you feel strongly against but I think you would have a hard time finding anyone who thinks folding makes sense. Not to mention it is 4 handed!
I can understand calling river, given that I don't block flush draws and it can never be a big mistake to call in a now large pot, but a few factors you forget are

1) I actually am fairly close to the bottom of my turn 3 betting range (AQ, maybe KQ creeps in) for value
2) i am value heavy when I 3 bet turn. Most of my flop bluffs have a 6 in them, so I'd be calling with those hands against a raise
3) FWIW I've played a lot with this opponent and think he's capable of delay raising river and think he's going to specifically underbluff this card.

So fleshing out my value range may look something like this:

53s
QQ
77
44
Q7
Q6s
Q4s
76s (discounted to 1 combo)
AA
KK
AQ
KQ like 50%

So based on where I am in my range, it's a clear call if I were playing, say, you guys and I was worried about exploitation. After the fact, I still may prefer calling a bit more simply because I do not have a spade in my hand and agree that the fold here may be too heroic, and this particular opponent has some non-ABC tendencies (though this would be incredibly extreme by his standards). However, i haven't come across many non-2+2'rs that manage to have balanced turn R/c river raise ranges
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:58 PM   #14
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

In for thread title.

You should have a 3b range pre against this villain hu from BB when he opens CO/BTN.

While "old school reg" may not be able to construct the maximally exploitive river bluff raising range against you on that board (and pretty much everyone irl is underbluffing here), he's seen enough hands to know that if the pot is huge and he can only win by raising, then 2 more bets might seem reasonable.

Turn gives BB defense range lots of high equity draws that can't show down (ideal for 3 betting) and your hand doesn't block any of them.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:08 AM   #15
chillrob
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

I think I just call down from turn raise here.
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:30 AM   #16
jdr0317
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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I think I just call down from turn raise here.
Given what I assume your image would be Rob, I think that would be a good play for you. I think my image is a little bit more maniac in games like this
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Old 05-01-2017, 12:39 AM   #17
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Im sort of a lurker and Ive played a little but with you jdr...in my opinion at least, you arent nearly as "maniacal" as you seem to think. At least I dont think youre perceived as such. Ive never talked to anyone about you so this is 100% my own opinion. Ive seen you post that about yourself numerous times and I always have the same thought though.

I think this hand is an absolute abomination though tbh. How do you come up with bet/3betting the turn and bet/folding the brickiest of all brick rivers? I mean...what changed? If this is a close decision at all I think we have to call, if nothing else Id want to see the villians hand. As played Im for sure just calling down after getting raised on the turn. I think this line is really terrible but I do commend you for posting it.
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:06 AM   #18
jdr0317
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

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Im sort of a lurker and Ive played a little but with you jdr...in my opinion at least, you arent nearly as "maniacal" as you seem to think. At least I dont think youre perceived as such. Ive never talked to anyone about you so this is 100% my own opinion. Ive seen you post that about yourself numerous times and I always have the same thought though.

I think this hand is an absolute abomination though tbh. How do you come up with bet/3betting the turn and bet/folding the brickiest of all brick rivers? I mean...what changed? If this is a close decision at all I think we have to call, if nothing else Id want to see the villians hand. As played Im for sure just calling down after getting raised on the turn. I think this line is really terrible but I do commend you for posting it.
It really depends on the person. People who play w/ me mostly FR think I'm the rock of Gibraltar. My image is kind of weird.

It's obviously a non-standard line. Why post hands where I think I played it well, when I can post hands that I might played poorly?
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:22 AM   #19
Michael Davis
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Like View Post
Im sort of a lurker and Ive played a little but with you jdr...in my opinion at least, you arent nearly as "maniacal" as you seem to think. At least I dont think youre perceived as such. Ive never talked to anyone about you so this is 100% my own opinion. Ive seen you post that about yourself numerous times and I always have the same thought though.

I think this hand is an absolute abomination though tbh. How do you come up with bet/3betting the turn and bet/folding the brickiest of all brick rivers? I mean...what changed? If this is a close decision at all I think we have to call, if nothing else Id want to see the villians hand. As played Im for sure just calling down after getting raised on the turn. I think this line is really terrible but I do commend you for posting it.
Not saying I agree with the fold, I think it's fine in a vacuum but close enough that future considerations might make it a call--if you fold, you should turbo muck and make it seem like you were bluffing, once you sigh you should call--, but "what's changed" is pretty significant. Our opponent raised the river. Against the opponent as described this is a far bigger consideration than the river card.
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:11 AM   #20
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Stopping by to say hi to Micheal Davis. Good to see you.
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:35 AM   #21
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Nothing wrong with 3-betting the turn here. Seems reasonable against plenty of players, and even more reasonable against this guy. I think a lot of people might defend a turn 3-bet with AQ here as well, maybe even KQ or any Q. So if you might be making some lighter 3-bets like that, and the guy has an idea about that possible dynamic - its actually not that insane for him to raise again on the river with AQ. He doesn't even need you to fold KK really - just to possibly have some worse Q's/pairs to pay off with, or perhaps get you to fold a chop.
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Old 05-01-2017, 05:26 PM   #22
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
4 handed live 40/80.

Villain is an old school reg whom I've played a ton with. Is prone to fancy playing, especially with strong hands, and does check back flop a fair amount (which makes me think I should be finding more three bets, and obviously include this hand). Has some history of mildly overplaying value against me. Should know I've been fairly sticky against him as well.

I have K K BB.

Villain opens CO, I just call BB

Flop (2.25 BB): Q74r

I check, he bets, I raise, he calls

Turn (4.25 BB): 6 putting two spades

I bet, he raises, I 3 bet, he calls

River (10.25 BB): 2c

I bet, he raises, I sigh fold.



So you folded KK on a Q7462 board? because guy raised you on river? Or am I missing something?
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:01 PM   #23
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

Your range on the river is possibly something like AA, KK, QQ, 77, 44, 74s, Q6s, AQ plus a few combos of sf draws ~ 39 combos. The pot is 13 bets so you should be folding 8% or so. I understand we can exploit this opponent by folding more but folding KK+ represents 66% of our range. Seems like too much to me.
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:34 PM   #24
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

It's fine. Replies here are embarrassingly results oriented. AQ, Lol right.
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:49 PM   #25
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Re: I put in a luxury car payment and don't show down

I would honestly say most posts are the exact opposite of being results oriented. OP may very well be beat in this hand, would like more info on villain to really have opinion on whether we are good in this spot. The overwhelming majority agree folding on the river after putting in so many bets just doesn't make sense with a hand as strong as KK. The raise on river can mean alot, like villain missed a huge draw and can only win by bluffing, he has overplayed AQ or KQ or that he indeed has a set or a weird two pair. I just want this info for one bet and considering its such a short handed game wouldn't be surprised villain is bluffing more often than op thinks, if they have played together regularly and OP is folding KK here surely villain has seen him make other questionable folds.
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