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Old 08-04-2008, 01:39 PM   #1
jesse8888
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I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Live 20/40 game, hero's first hand at the table. Hero posts the BB between the button and small blind.

4 limps and hero raises T T

SB, BB and all the limpers call, and away we go.


7 hands, 7 big bets

8 6 2

Hero bets, EVERYONE calls.


7 hands, 10.5 big bets

8 6 2 2

Hero bets, SB calls, some folds, HJ raises, button takes two to the face.....Pause

The pot is down to 4 handed and is gigantic. The button obviously has one of the two flush draws. HJ is a player I have seen in the 40/80 game before. I don't know much about his play, but really all he can have that makes sense and is beating me here is A2s. A semi-bluff with a hand I can beat is very likely from him. SB is a very fat, old eastern European loose passive player.

I call, SB calls.

18.5 big bets, 4 handed.

8 6 2 2 6

I check, SB checks, HJ bets, button folds, I call....


Thoughts on the turn really are all I'm looking for...I assume nobody can fold, but does anybody raise?
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:00 PM   #2
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Eh, I think all streets are good.

TURN: You have to lead to charge draws. If some guy has a deuce, oh well. Call the raise, I don't think there's any point in 3 betting here.


AB
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:06 PM   #3
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Eh, not much you can do...he would be a maniac to raise with a flush draw unless it also contained the 8 to get you off your overpair. So he either has Ac8c or 9c8c or you lose.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:03 PM   #4
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Jesse--

Given your reads I think there's nothing else you can do. I think 3-betting the turn would be bad; a priori ranges and third guy aside, once he raises into this protected pot I wouldn't feel comfortable reopening the action given this board texture unless the raiser were a rare brand of aggressive.

All my best,

--Nate
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:18 PM   #5
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Pretty standard. No point in 3betting turn because your equity isnt so good against 3 players even if you are ahead.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:20 PM   #6
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

I just started lurking at medium stakes an see that you have moved up. Congrats. Your post show a skill superior to most of the 15-30 + players that I know.

You played this have well. I think you have to give the 40 player some credit and not 3 bet. Because of your read you have to call him down. Too bad if he hit his hand twice to beat you.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:20 PM   #7
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
The button obviously has one of the two flush draws. HJ is a player I have seen in the 40/80 game before. I don't know much about his play, but really all he can have that makes sense and is beating me here is A2s. A semi-bluff with a hand I can beat is very likely from him. SB is a very fat, old eastern European loose passive player.
If you are correct about button, and it seems likely, I think a raise is good here. With 18.5 bets in, just about any increased equity is worth an extra bet. You are likely in lead and must charge these draws. to fold out a jack would be quite beneficial. There are a lot of bullets yet to dodge.

Why wouldn't you want to get an extra 3 bets in here or perhaps a fold or two? Reread title of thread.
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Old 08-04-2008, 03:33 PM   #8
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

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Originally Posted by Johnny 99 View Post
If you are correct about button, and it seems likely, I think a raise is good here. With 18.5 bets in, just about any increased equity is worth an extra bet. You are likely in lead and must charge these draws. to fold out a jack would be quite beneficial. There are a lot of bullets yet to dodge.

Why wouldn't you want to get an extra 3 bets in here or perhaps a fold or two? Reread title of thread.
Johnny--

Folding a 5-outer would be great, but nothing better than that is folding, and once we get raised on this board with this action we are looking at a better hand very often; furthermore, at least some of those better hands will 4-bet. As important as it is to secure fractions of big pots, that's not a goal we can reasonably accomplish here.

All my best,

--Nate
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:43 AM   #9
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

OK, so it seems nobody thinks pushing the R button is a good idea. Thanks.

River action is LOL tastic....hand ends with....

SB calls. HJ says "you win". I hold my hand in the air and do not show it. HJ mucks his cards. I table my TT. SB tables K 6. A minute later I say "I mean, that was basically the nuts, right?" and he doesn't really take the hint that his play was unbelievably bad.

Quote:
Given your reads I think there's nothing else you can do. I think 3-betting the turn would be bad; a priori ranges and third guy aside, once he raises into this protected pot I wouldn't feel comfortable reopening the action given this board texture unless the raiser were a rare brand of idiot.
And apparently he was
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Old 08-05-2008, 02:31 AM   #10
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

I assume we fold the river if the SB C/R's?

Like auto?
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Old 08-05-2008, 01:24 PM   #11
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny 99 View Post
If you are correct about button, and it seems likely, I think a raise is good here. With 18.5 bets in, just about any increased equity is worth an extra bet. You are likely in lead and must charge these draws. to fold out a jack would be quite beneficial. There are a lot of bullets yet to dodge.

Why wouldn't you want to get an extra 3 bets in here or perhaps a fold or two? Reread title of thread.
I agree. This is big pot basic strategy. Stop trying to save bets and instead do everything possible to increase your chances of winning the pot. If your raise betters your chances by even 10% here then it is worth almost two big bets. Basic Ed Miller stuff.
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Old 08-05-2008, 02:13 PM   #12
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

There's 17.5 big bets with a turn call of the raise, is it really worth a raise here when you could be 4bet? The SB also knows this pot is very big and the only hand he maybe might fold if you 3bet is a pair and a gutshot?
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:54 PM   #13
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glassjawed View Post
There's 17.5 big bets with a turn call of the raise, is it really worth a raise here when you could be 4bet? The SB also knows this pot is very big and the only hand he maybe might fold if you 3bet is a pair and a gutshot?
You'd have to make lots of assumptions and attach probabilities to different possible actions to really answer that. But, usually, once the pot crosses the very big threshold, the possible gains of betting outweigh the negatives.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:43 PM   #14
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grease View Post
I assume we fold the river if the SB C/R's?

Like auto?
yup.
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:44 PM   #15
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emerson View Post
You'd have to make lots of assumptions and attach probabilities to different possible actions to really answer that. But, usually, once the pot crosses the very big threshold, the possible gains of betting outweigh the negatives.
The rub is that I have to call a 4-bet, because by that point the pot would be big enough for me to draw at my 2 outter I think.
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:53 PM   #16
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

That might be a problem, but it's really game dependent, how often is four betting occurring in the game without someone showing up with the nuts. While it might be spewy in most cases to open yourself up to a four bet that you have to call here, I still think that you could find some EV in a turn 3 bet, especially if you can narrow the 4-bet probability to a range that is somewhat improbable.
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:54 PM   #17
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
The rub is that I have to call a 4-bet, because by that point the pot would be big enough for me to draw at my 2 outter I think.
That is a saving bets argument. Clear them from your mind in monster pots. You are going to showdown. Being in bet saving mode puts you at a disadvantage against those who understand proper big pot strategy. Read Miller SSH, pp 145-152.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:44 AM   #18
JQPublic777
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

looking back, what is the correct action? Raise or just call on the turn? Save bet strategy or increase pot size?
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:35 PM   #19
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
OK, so it seems nobody thinks pushing the R button is a good idea. Thanks.

River action is LOL tastic....hand ends with....

SB calls. HJ says "you win". I hold my hand in the air and do not show it. HJ mucks his cards. I table my TT. SB tables K 6. A minute later I say "I mean, that was basically the nuts, right?" and he doesn't really take the hint that his play was unbelievably bad.



And apparently he was
Lol @ hj's river bet.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:57 PM   #20
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

I check raise the turn, there is no way this gets checked through.


as played, it depends on the opponent, if he can have A6 or T8, then 3bet, if you think you are in trouble, call down and pray for T(flushcard) on the river.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:04 PM   #21
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Re: I like big pots and I cannot lie.

I check raise the turn, there is no way this gets checked through.


as played, it depends on the opponent, if he can have A6 or T8, then 3bet, if you think you are in trouble, call down and pray for T(flushcard) on the river.
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