Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2008, 01:45 AM   #1
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quickie.

Live 20 game with a lot of bad players. Specific reads are lacking because it was a 7 handed pot and I mean...yeah. Two of them are decent, 1 is weak tight, the rest are standard loose and bad.

4 limps and I raise K Q Blinds both call, all the limpers call.

A Q 6

6 checks to me and I check. Awful or reasonably ok?
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 02:22 AM   #2
Captain R
Wot
 
Captain R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: people talking without speaking
Posts: 7,173
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Wtf, awful.
Captain R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 02:39 AM   #3
steelbase
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 290
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post

Live 20 game with a lot of bad players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post

7 handed pot
I think I would give my left testicle to be able to play live limit in Cali.

Anyways, I think your check here is pretty bad. By checking you allow a free card to weak draws and weaker pairs into an already decent sized 14sb pot. Also, you're allowing the possibility of a hand that folds on the flop to improve and have live outs on the turn. Too many good things happen when you bet, and it's only a 1sb investment into a pot you should aggressively be trying to win. Sure, most likely someone has an ace, but by betting against (I'm assuming) weak loose-passive players they'll c/c flop and check to you on the turn and you can decide to take a free card. Worst case scenario, you get check raised and then have to draw to your 5 pair outs + 2 bd outs.
steelbase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 05:07 AM   #4
Carmine
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,691
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

What are you going to do if you check flop and ep/mp player bets turn?
If it's one bet back you're going to put in twice the money with less equity. Two bets back to you and you're going to fold wishing that you had bet flop so it would be checked to you again giving you a much better option.
Carmine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 05:51 AM   #5
asleep
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 125
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

You could probably bet this on every street and get paid off by some moronic pocket 5s or 4s.
asleep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 07:13 AM   #6
bakku
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,920
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

i'd definitely bet then go from there
bakku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 07:32 AM   #7
private joker
Most Definitely
 
private joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Am I the boxer or the bag?
Posts: 25,244
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

If you're HU with a decent player, then I can see checking here because you'd be WA/WB on this very dry board with not much risk giving a free card to most of the hands vs. you that have 2-3 outs. But when you're in a large multiway pot, you must must bet this hand. Collectively they have tons of outs against you, and even if you're behind to an A, you'll get a chance to take a free card on the turn because bad aces love to c/c every street.
private joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 10:58 AM   #8
pgcounty
veteran
 
pgcounty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: utg+1
Posts: 2,985
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

fight the demon that tells you "one of them must have an ace"

bet everytime in this situation
pgcounty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 11:51 AM   #9
bisonbison
banned
 
bisonbison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: tables and chairs
Posts: 14,382
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

That's a rough start.
bisonbison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 12:38 PM   #10
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbase View Post
Sure, most likely someone has an ace, but by betting against (I'm assuming) weak loose-passive players they'll c/c flop and check to you on the turn and you can decide to take a free card. Worst case scenario, you get check raised and then have to draw to your 5 pair outs + 2 bd outs.
They're not loose-passive. At least three of them will check raise with an ace. For more about the generic game texture of the this 20 game...well, I dunno, maybe some regulars could expound. At the time this hand occurred I had 3 racks on the table and was in 4th chip position of 9. It is an aggressive game in general, and we had two known maniacs at the table who were in this hand.

Last edited by jesse8888; 08-01-2008 at 12:44 PM.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 12:40 PM   #11
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmine View Post
What are you going to do if you check flop and ep/mp player bets turn?
If it's one bet back you're going to put in twice the money with less equity. Two bets back to you and you're going to fold wishing that you had bet flop so it would be checked to you again giving you a much better option.
Plan was to try to get to showdown against this field for 2 big bets (which coincidentally I achieved).

If it's two bets back to me, no, I won't wish I had bet the flop. I'll be glad I didn't because I'd have gotten check-raised then had a tough decision to make as to whether or not to make a 2 big bet call down in a gigantic pot that I'm winning like never.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 12:43 PM   #12
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Thanks for the thoughts guys. When I checked it felt dirty and I figured that's the static I'd get here by posting the hand. My logic was that in a 14 bet pot anybody with any piece is gonna call anyway (any gutter or pair) so I couldn't protect my hand. I realize I still need to charge those hands to draw, but I felt not doing so was a small, not huge, mistake as I couldn't get them to fold.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 12:46 PM   #13
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by private joker View Post
and even if you're behind to an A, you'll get a chance to take a free card on the turn because bad aces love to c/c every street.
I think this might be a salient difference between commerce and my 20 game. I get check/raised by weak aces a lot.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 12:49 PM   #14
Captain R
Wot
 
Captain R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: people talking without speaking
Posts: 7,173
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
I think this might be a salient difference between commerce and my 20 game. I get check/raised by weak aces a lot.
Getting c/r by a weak Ace is not a bad thing.
Captain R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 01:13 PM   #15
Tryptamean
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,842
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
Thanks for the thoughts guys. When I checked it felt dirty and I figured that's the static I'd get here by posting the hand. My logic was that in a 14 bet pot anybody with any piece is gonna call anyway (any gutter or pair) so I couldn't protect my hand. I realize I still need to charge those hands to draw, but I felt not doing so was a small, not huge, mistake as I couldn't get them to fold.
ugh very bad logic here imo... sure they won't fold a decent piece , but basically getting them to fold practically anything in a 14SB pot is good. this pot is big enough that you're going to see the river almost every time, but its ok to fold if its obvious you're beat. that's no excuse for not betting..
Tryptamean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 01:25 PM   #16
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: We're all Lebowskis on this bus
Posts: 8,761
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
Getting c/r by a weak Ace is not a bad thing.
Indeed not. Among other things, it can improve your equity in the pot! Would an early-position checkraise from a weak ace get someone in the middle holding TJ to fold? If so, it buys you three more outs than you otherwise would have.

Moreover, in the games I play in, a checkraise will come from a player holding a hand like QJ or QT ... or 67.

Besides, think of how much things might change if the J or T should fall on the turn. (Or any club, or any J or T.) Yes the board is relatively dry, but your backdoor draws add some strength to your hand.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 01:36 PM   #17
9.5fingershuffle
Pooh-Bah
 
9.5fingershuffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trapped in a newspaper palace.
Posts: 5,351
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

You have a royal frush draw. Bet it.
9.5fingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 01:46 PM   #18
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Fine fine fine guys. I'll bet next time. Thanks

I did win the pot when 67s barreled into me on the next two streets.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 03:31 PM   #19
Jazzy3113
veteran
 
Jazzy3113's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mergers & Acquisitions
Posts: 2,002
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Jesse, do you play for a living? Just curious since you post a ton of hands.

I feel that checking here would only make sense HU. You gotta bet, if not for value than to find out cheapy if there is an ace out there.
Jazzy3113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 04:27 PM   #20
Hamking
journeyman
 
Hamking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Power limpin' your mom
Posts: 335
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzy3113 View Post
Jesse, do you play for a living?
It's his first day on the job...
Hamking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 04:35 PM   #21
Jazzy3113
veteran
 
Jazzy3113's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mergers & Acquisitions
Posts: 2,002
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

well i asked because i feel that the majority of posters have real jobs and play poker as a side income/lucrative hobby.

I am always a little impressed when I hear of someone who can play limit poker full time as a job. The grind and swings would kill me if I did not have a stable income to fall back on.
Jazzy3113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 07:30 PM   #22
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: We're all Lebowskis on this bus
Posts: 8,761
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrohman View Post
You have a royal frush draw. Bet it.
Yup. Hold the A K Q and pitch the offsuit Q and 6. That's if we're playing a full-pay Deuces machine. On a Jacks or Better machine, though, I think you're better off holding the guaranteed payoff of the two Qs and drawing to trips or better. (I know the Deuces Wild moves by heart, but I never bothered to learn Jacks or Better.)
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2008, 09:23 PM   #23
Nate.
Pooh-Bah
 
Nate.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Now blogging.
Posts: 3,995
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

OP--

I'm going to disagree with some people here. Not that checking is OK--I don't think it is--but I think checking this hand HU is horrible whereas checking it multiway is less bad.

All my best,

--Nate
Nate. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 01:54 PM   #24
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamking View Post
It's his first day on the job...
True. Quit job yesterday, playing full time for 6 weeks....After that I might end up back in a cube, but there is a chance this will stick. If I run like last night I'll retire by the time I'm 30.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 01:55 PM   #25
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,600
Re: I flop pair, decline to c-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate. View Post
OP--

I'm going to disagree with some people here. Not that checking is OK--I don't think it is--but I think checking this hand HU is horrible whereas checking it multiway is less bad.

All my best,

--Nate
I think checking heads up would be uber awful as well and would never consider it.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online