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04-19-2017 , 05:31 PM

Smarty 2.0

adept

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,075

30/60 game with a full kill

9-handed

Kill is posted in LP

UTG (decent player) raises, UTG+1 (fish) cold calls, UTG+2 (expert) 3-bets!,
we look down at AQo and...?

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04-19-2017 , 05:39 PM

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

My preference is to fold. I play with enough bad players that I'd rather not play a likely dominated hand against an expert and a decent with a tight range not to mention you're unlikely to win unimproved 4 ways with a fish coming along. I fold and find a better spot.

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04-19-2017 , 06:13 PM

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

I also hate being +2 on a fish with am expert to my right. They adjust and make it very hard for you to isolate or realize your equity against the person you most want to play with. Tough spot for sure.

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04-19-2017 , 10:00 PM

jdr0317

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Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty 2.0

30/60 game with a full kill

9-handed

Kill is posted in LP

UTG (decent player) raises, UTG+1 (fish) cold calls, UTG+2 (expert) 3-bets!,
we look down at AQo and...?

Is killer yet to act?

I'm okay folding this as a default, but I'm speed capping AQs here.

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04-20-2017 , 12:45 PM

lawdude

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What do you think UTG's and UTG+2's ranges are here?

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04-20-2017 , 02:09 PM

COCOCHANEL

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 504

Depends totally on how expert and you have appeared to others--and especially to one another. Your image is just as important as your reads on the others. Have you and expert been duking it out? Avoiding one another? Gambling together? Do fish have any respect for you? Do they think you're a magical luckbox whom they can't ever, ever win a hand against?

I'm capping and folding 50%/50% here, and when I cap, I have a plan for the entire hand.

If she's really an expert, she will iso-raise here in the kill with a range that is < A-Q, depending on the species of fish.

And agree that if A-Qs just jam and hope for money!

Last edited by COCOCHANEL; 04-20-2017 at 02:16 PM.

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04-20-2017 , 03:43 PM

ninefingershuffle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,542

I'd fold, but last time I did I would have been up against JTs

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04-20-2017 , 04:22 PM

PaulValente

grinder

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 645

Meh, I cap it. **** it. You're going to end up in some tough spots, but with the fish in and some extra dead money in there it can't be bad.

If you're just taking a shot in this game though or not fully rolled for it, this would be a good spot to forego a tiny bit of EV in order to avoid a **** ton of variance. Something I'm generally opposed to.

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04-20-2017 , 04:48 PM

lawdude

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I would be suprised if this is a marginal EV spot (though I agree it is obviously high variance). Either the two raisers (one of them decent and in first position and the other one an expert player three betting a first position raise) have ranges that crush us, which would make it a seriously -EV spot, or they have ranges that AQo does fine against, which would make it a more than marginally +EV spot.

So I'd still like to know what ranges OP puts these players on, based on whatever reads OP has beyond "expert" and "decent".

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04-20-2017 , 04:50 PM

#10

Montrealcorp

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 13,285

i fold

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04-20-2017 , 07:50 PM

#11

Smarty 2.0

adept

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,075

JDR: Killer is yet to act. Agree, I would be 4-betting here if it were AQs.

Lawdude: These views (decent, expert) are based on a fairly small sample size.

Hand waving guess as ranges is:
UTG: ATs+, AJo+, KQs, 77+
UTG+2: A9s+, ATo+, QJs+, KQo+, 77+

Coco: Expert and I hadn't been in too many pots, expert has gotten the better of me in HU pots thus far. Fish has some respect for me.

PaulV: Not taking a shot here, stakes are irrelevant.

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04-20-2017 , 08:16 PM

#12

NitrogeN

banned

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 5

Crowd has it right here. Laying it down is correct play

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04-21-2017 , 01:13 AM

#13

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

I know it is confirmation bias but I had this literal exact spot tonight. Very loose and aggressive opens, one of the best players in the whole 20 pool 3 bets and I look at AQo next up on the button. I thought of this post as I folded. Saved tons of money on a Q93 rainbow flop, 6 turn, Q river. Expert had 99 and BB who took two more to the face had the last queen. When I say I lay down AQo it's really only to the experts.

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04-21-2017 , 11:10 AM

#14

DeathDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty 2.0

Hand waving guess as ranges is:
UTG: ATs+, AJo+, KQs, 77+
UTG+2: A9s+, ATo+, QJs+, KQo+, 77+

So we can infer you think it's right to 3 bet a significantly wider range than an utg opener because of the presence of a coldcalling bad player? I think this is very wrong.

If your ranges are correct it's an extremely easy cap. I don't see an expert doing that but it might be a semantical argument.

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04-21-2017 , 11:28 AM

#15

PaulValente

grinder

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 645

So seeing that you were up against 99 and a weaker Q makes you happy you folded?

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04-21-2017 , 11:28 AM

#16

jdr0317

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

Agreed. I three bet wide after a raise and cold call (form of implicit collusion versus the cold caller), but QJs and ATo are never three bets for me against a reasonable UTG range.

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04-21-2017 , 12:23 PM

#17

DeathDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt

That makes no sense, you should fold AQ when an uncreative nit is 3 betting. When an expert 3 bet isolates a "very loose and aggressive" from late position you should be fist pump capping this hand and worse.

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04-21-2017 , 01:47 PM

#18

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulValente

So seeing that you were up against 99 and a weaker Q makes you happy you folded?

No I was happy with the fold either way. There were 3 really bad players in a 5 handed game and I didn't think twice about not three betting probably the 3rd best player I play with on a regular basis. Just commented because it was similar.

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04-21-2017 , 01:49 PM

#19

PaulValente

grinder

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 645

I just commented because to me that's confirmation bias in favor of capping

Last edited by PaulValente; 04-21-2017 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Funny how bias works :p

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04-21-2017 , 02:11 PM

#20

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulValente

I just commented because to me that's confirmation bias in favor of capping

Where I play 4 isn't a cap but I'd still do it against all but like 5 guys in my player pool, he just happened to be one of them. I think avoiding spots with good players when the rest of table is waiting to pass you chips has some merit but I could be wrong. Worked out for me in this spot which is why I prefaced my comment.

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04-21-2017 , 02:45 PM

#21

avoidthe9to5

[x] 9to5 avoided

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,662

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

this

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04-21-2017 , 03:00 PM

#22

lawdude

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Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 10,305

I'm with DD and avoid. If the ranges posted by OP are the actual ranges, this is a no-brainer cap. On the other hand, I am skeptical about the ranges-- the one player is decent and UTG, and the expert shouldn't be 3-betting that lightly in this spot and may even have a pretty tight range.

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04-21-2017 , 03:25 PM

#23

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

Quote:

Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5

this

I never said the 3 better was an uncreative nit. In fact the exact opposite is true. He's a very good winning lag. I'm the uncreative nit which is why I folded AQo there.

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04-21-2017 , 04:12 PM

#24

DeathDonkey

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Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12,875

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt

I never said the 3 better was an uncreative nit. In fact the exact opposite is true. He's a very good winning lag. I'm the uncreative nit which is why I folded AQo there.

You probably shouldn't play 5 handed then

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04-21-2017 , 04:22 PM

#25

DonkeyOnTilt

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,002

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

You probably shouldn't play 5 handed then

It was a good spot. I may tend to be on the tight and ABC side but I have enough experience to adjust. I was significantly better than the other 3 players and chose to avoid 1 guy at the table. I am self aware enough to know where I'm at in the game flow.

I still think that even if folding AQo to a good players 3 bet is a mistake, it's a small one. I'd love to be compelled in another direction as I am really trying hard to be less of a see through tagfish.

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