This game has a 4 bet cap.
As has been discussed in some previous threads, there are a few different ways to approach this preflop decision depending on how we want to build our overall strategy, each of which seems to have some pros and cons. We can just call with our entire continuing range. We can reraise with our strong hands for value and just call with the rest of our (capped) continuing range. We can use a reraise or fold strategy. We can try to construct reraising and calling ranges which are both balanced by using mixed (suit based) strategies where we have at least some combos of every hand in our continuing range included in both ranges.
I feel like debating and discussing these various approaches can be a worthwhile exercise. Without revealing too much about my own strategic choices in this spot, suffice it to say that I feel that we should continue with this hand and that I am comfortable with my decision to just call with this particular hand in this particular spot. To me, this felt like the easiest of all of my decisions in this hand.
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I think flop is a tough spot as is the turn. Can't speculate w/o some ranges. You are wawb so cheap showdown would be nice. I'd consider donking the flop.
I'm not sure what you mean by most of this. What ranges do you need? I have given the preflop positions and actions of my opponents and have noted that they are both winning players. I'm also not sure that I agree that we are way ahead / way behind -- if my opponents are drawing then I would be "slightly" or "somewhat" ahead imo. I also generally disagree with the mentality of trying for a "cheap showdown" as I feel that this way of thinking can often lead to poor play. Remember also that we are out of position in this hand so we have a lot less control over this anyway. Why would you consider donking the flop? What is the thought process behind making that play with this hand?
Why would you take that line on this flop? What is the thought process behind making that play with this hand?
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Flop is a tough spot. I think I just call 2 cold here because the turn card will dramatically change our equity, although I'd feel better about taking this line with a bigger overpair. (This is the moral of the "Two Overpair Hands" chapter in one of the Sklansky/Malmuth books.)
As noted in the OP, I think I agree with the action of just calling two bets on the flop as awkward as that is, but I think I disagree with your thought process here. If I recall, the idea behind the "two overpair hands" concepts is that we might take different lines depending on if we have a small equity advantage which may or may not improve on future streets vs. if we want to go ahead and immediately push a large equity advantage for value. In addition, we might have an inability to protect our hand on the small street due to the pot size.
In this case, however, I felt that we are simply in a portion of our range that is behind -- but not so far behind that we should fold, due to the price we are getting to call.
I did feel that this was a tough spot though so I am interested in hearing more thoughts behind why we might take an alternative line here.
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I would fold on this turn card though.
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Turn . . . yeah it sucks to fold an overpair, but this is a terrible turn card and you can dump it.
So on the turn was where I felt the most lost in this hand. I am obviously hoping that the turn checks through which would give me more confidence that I might actually have the best hand -- unfortunately, neither of these opponents are face up with their post flop ranges in that way.
Let me talk about my somewhat confused thought process on the turn and reveal my turn action to foster more discussion.
I agree that this is a terrible turn card for my HAND. However, I felt at the time that this could be an excellent turn card for my RANGE. At least for my perceived range -- remember, I am in the big blind and I just checked and called two cold on a dynamic flop. My post flop range should now be pretty draw heavy . . . and a ton of draws just got there on this turn! Any 6x makes a straight. Any flush draw makes a flush. As the big blind with this post flop line, I felt that it would seem like I could have a lot more of these hands than my opponents (this may or may not actually be true).
. . . Hero raises the turn . . .
Now I actually DO have the ability to force V1 to fold various 9 out and 10 out draws which benefits me greatly if I actually am ahead. (But it doesn't benefit me hardly at all if I am behind and the hand shows down) I might even be able to get V1 to fold a couple of better hands.
When V2 bets the turn, I really don't like my hand any more. Calling and not closing the action felt a little too gross to the point where it seemed like it was probably slightly bad. And yet, vs tough winning players in a large pot (V2 in particular can be pretty balanced and does not have an overpair here always imo) I just really didn't want to fold here either. So, ultimately at game speed I decided that this exact hand represented the top of my folding range and decided to turn it into a multiway "bluff". The problem is, it's REALLY hard to see V2 ever folding better before showdown on most runouts. But, there is a parley that I am sometimes ahead of V2 but behind V1, IF V1 has certain hands in his flop donking range (that's a big if though).
Now, I WILL have some delayed big hands that take this line for value, and I will also have plenty of draws that got there which also take this line for value. And yet, I am concerned that I might be over bluffing in this spot if I am bluffing with this hand.
I am ready for the criticism. Fire away!