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Old 04-15-2017, 10:27 PM   #26
Clayton
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

so is betting 22 and/or AJ not thin? i'd fistpump bet 22 and waver with AJ. dont wanna sidetrack the thread.

also had to consider the times we float flop with something like J9 and have to barrel, but in general seems like we should have the best hand (ie pair) a lot of the time where there arent many bluffs except for 78/79/89. maybe the rando king highs, but that gets too complicated for my peasant LHE brain
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:29 PM   #27
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
so is betting 22 and/or AJo not thin?
I was talking about this hand specifically (98) and thought you were too.

I guess I worded that confusingly... By polarized I just meant your hand is either very strong or 9 high on almost all rivers.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:29 PM   #28
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by stinkypete View Post
they're likely to get a good handle on your calling range.
i mean, yeah you know my range is capped if you know that i'm 3betting 20% of hands, but getting a good handle on my calling range isn't going to be easy when i call 80%, fold 0% and play post flop well and balanced. if you can get a good handle on my pre flop calling range, then would you like to play me HU where you're always the SB and OOP and i'm always the BB? as a bonus and to make it more enticing for you, i'll give you my ranges for calling and raising.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:17 AM   #29
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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i mean, yeah you know my range is capped if you know that i'm 3betting 20% of hands, but getting a good handle on my calling range isn't going to be easy when i call 80%, fold 0% and play post flop well and balanced. if you can get a good handle on my pre flop calling range, then would you like to play me HU where you're always the SB and OOP and i'm always the BB? as a bonus and to make it more enticing for you, i'll give you my ranges for calling and raising.
how about we play HU and i'll only take the button on two out of three hands? as a bonus and to make it more enticing for you, i'll give you my exact strategy on every street.

p.s. you're an idiot

Last edited by stinkypete; 04-16-2017 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:21 AM   #30
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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this post is dumb


No u. My post is smart and points out how your post is dumb.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:29 AM   #31
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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No u. My post is smart and points out how your post is dumb.
you're a very special moron if you've made 2981 posts on 2+2 and haven't yet figured out that having the button is an edge
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:43 AM   #32
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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you're a very special moron if you've made 2981 posts on 2+2 and haven't yet figured out that having the button is an edge


Seems like you understand at least part of what I was trying to say.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:00 AM   #33
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Seems like you understand at least part of what I was trying to say.
that makes one of us
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:01 AM   #34
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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that makes one of us


GG. You win.
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:21 AM   #35
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
if bb flats 100% sb should adjust by cbetting ~10-15% less as his range has less equity.



Millions of GTO hand histories, including 3handed results from AI championships. + years of study
When the btn folds, and sb raises, bb is 3betting 20%. If you don't 3bet 20% from the BB, the SB can adjust exploitatively to cbet less often.
Cool. I have a lot of catching up to do. Been too lazy to work on GTO PF stuff and haven't upgraded to Edge.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:44 PM   #36
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

Damn I thought I was onto something by flatting 100%. How about limping the button or donking flops, do ppl do that?
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:51 PM   #37
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Damn I thought I was onto something by flatting 100%. How about limping the button or donking flops, do ppl do that?
Flatting 100% isn't as bad as the GTO guys will tell you it is because most villains will c-bet 100% or close to it. If they're capable of adjusting by opening a little wider and checking a lot of flops you have to punish them preflop.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:04 AM   #38
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

Even if villains cbet 100%, you still miss out on massive value by not 3b'ing your best hands.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:26 AM   #39
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Even if villains cbet 100%, you still miss out on massive value by not 3b'ing your best hands.
no
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Old 04-17-2017, 10:39 AM   #40
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

I might try to counter the check back strategy by donking some hands. If I think people are opening wider my natural foil would be to peel lighter and delay everything til the turn.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:44 AM   #41
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

Three bet pre blind vs blind. Now there's a thought I haven't heard in a long time....
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:00 PM   #42
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by stinkypete View Post
Flatting 100% isn't as bad as the GTO guys will tell you it is because most villains will c-bet 100% or close to it. If they're capable of adjusting by opening a little wider and checking a lot of flops you have to punish them preflop.
this, 100%. while playing exploitatively is suboptimal against solid aware players, doing so against not good players or worse costs money. you don't have to worry about creating solid ranges against your weaker opponents, nor about 3b pf if they're going to bet every single flop. Many people who are worse players but highly agro will also tend to bet the flop a ****ton. calling the bb with all your hands and then balancing your raises between flops and turns gets you more money than 3b'ing pf.

historically, i've used the pf flat strategy against great players who are in the sb b/c it's easier to execute and takes less thought at the table. but seeing the above, i'm thinking i should construct these ranges for those players. the people who i normally play the flat 100% method against either won't notice that i'm 3betting other people from the bb, or almost surely won't care.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:51 PM   #43
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

I completely disagree that flatting 100% is easier fwiw. Or at least I don't play blind vs. blind enough to commit the kind of time to studying the flop options that it would require.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:05 PM   #44
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by stinkypete View Post
no
Example:
you flat AA. Flop comes 25Q. They cbet you raise. They have 5x-Qrag. They call down since your raise looks like Q+.
If you had 3b PF, they would put in a raise somewhere, allowing you to put in another raise.

By 3b'ing pre, they raise back lighter
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:16 PM   #45
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
Example:
you flat AA. Flop comes 25Q. They cbet you raise. They have 5x-Qrag. They call down since your raise looks like Q+.
If you had 3b PF, they would put in a raise somewhere, allowing you to put in another raise.

By 3b'ing pre, they raise back lighter
If you're going to take the logically flawed side of the argument you're going to have to do better than "they play bad one flop against AA"

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Old 04-17-2017, 04:54 PM   #46
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

Read between the lines. By 3b'ing pre, your range is wider than if you raise a flop. This means you can get more action from middling hands. AA and other monsters welcome this extra action.
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:46 PM   #47
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

Y'all are missing the social dynamic that comes from more preflop aggression: Tilt factor.

I have several people in the field who will go 4+ plus raises with me BvB due to image. Just calling aces is a disaster for me
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:48 PM   #48
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
Y'all are missing the social dynamic that comes from more preflop aggression: Tilt factor.

I have several people in the field who will go 4+ plus raises with me BvB due to image. Just calling aces is a disaster for me
I never realized "nice guy who plays tight" was the type of image that encourages tilt spew.

That's a legit argument tho unlike the nonsense phunkphish is spewing
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:18 PM   #49
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
Example:
you flat AA. Flop comes 25Q. They cbet you raise. They have 5x-Qrag. They call down since your raise looks like Q+.
If you had 3b PF, they would put in a raise somewhere, allowing you to put in another raise.

By 3b'ing pre, they raise back lighter


Fwiw if you did flat aces pre this is a good board to wait til the turn. But I agree w Pete generally. Flat everything in the bb is a suboptimal strategy that tends to work great against typical players. But if a guy starts donk checking it is gonna get owned.

It's the same as button vs bb. Vs most players you shouldn't 3 bet out of the bb there but against wizards who check back correct flop textures you have to.
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:39 PM   #50
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Re: Commerce 40/80: BvB Hand

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Fwiw if you did flat aces pre this is a good board to wait til the turn. But I agree w Pete generally. Flat everything in the bb is a suboptimal strategy that tends to work great against typical players. But if a guy starts donk checking it is gonna get owned.

It's the same as button vs bb. Vs most players you shouldn't 3 bet out of the bb there but against wizards who check back correct flop textures you have to.
yup. this hurt me before i adjusted. i had a kr 100% strategy b/c it's easier to do than the optimal strategy of donking ~8-10% of the time as the bots do. but the kr 100% strategy is SUPER vulnerable to people who check back the flop correctly. so i either had to adopt a donking strategy or 3b a balanced range of around 15%. i didn't like that though b/c it forced me to play an uncomfortable position that i wasn't used to so i decided to 3b a bit tighter while still including some good semibluffing hands and donking a small % of the time with good hands and semibluffs.

so i think my blind play is still off a bit vs. great players, but it's good enough not to be easily exploited. it's just def not optimal. but as the old saying goes: i'd rather be approximately right than definitely wrong. and vs. good players who check back close to correctly, 100% calling bb and 100% kr'ing flop is definitely wrong.
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