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Old 11-15-2008, 09:09 PM   #1
jesse8888
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Captain R said this was interesting

So I will post it. I want to point out that despite these two threads I try not to make a habit of always cold-calling next in with suited broadways. These two situations just seemed to merit it. Anyway, same live 20/40.

EP player open-raises exactly all in. He's not UTG, but it's close, I think just one later. I call Q T next in because Orange Shirt Guy and Michigan Man (on my immediate left...I need a new seat) have both already cut off 8 chips and are coming in for sure (not that this telegraph actually sends much information). They both call. Captain R looks at me, confused, then flings in 4 chips from the big blind.

Again...Orange Shirt Guy is spewy and awful, Michigan Man is typically bad, and Captain R is a rock-star at this level.


5 handed, one player all in for all 10 small bets

3 4 9

Captain Checks, I bet, Orange Shirt guy calls, Captain calls


4 handed, 3 small bets on the side, 10 in the main

3 4 9 3

Captain Checks, I bet, Orange Shirt calls, Captain folds


River blank (black 7 I think), and I check.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:29 PM   #2
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Pot is certainly big enough to fire one more bet to attempt to fold out A or K high. Villain needs to fold very rarely to make this profitable.

If you're called, don't turbo muck your hand like a dumbass and let the guy just scoop the chips. Proudly announce that you have queen high and table your hand. This is great for your image if you play tight/solid/ABC.

People who are too sheepish to show a bluff piss me off a ton. I'm not even going to explain the logic why, because it should be really obvious (Hint: It's not because I ever think your Q high is good, although you never know if a dumbass has misread his hand).
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:36 PM   #3
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Some stuff I remember from the hand:

All-in preflop raiser was UTG+1 or UTG+2 like Jesse said.

I think flop was 5-high, definitely 6-high at most.

Something like 542 or 643 and I think the middle card paired on the turn, like 4.

One thing I thought was interesting was whether Jesse should fire into an empty sidepot on the flop, and then if so, should he continue firing on the turn to try to pick up the 1.5bb sidepot.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:53 PM   #4
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Let's go with the Captain's flop....643-4 with two hearts, then say the river was the 9. I know there wasn't a one card straight.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:55 PM   #5
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by boc4life View Post
Pot is certainly big enough to fire one more bet to attempt to fold out A or K high. Villain needs to fold very rarely to make this profitable.
The side pot is actually smallish...3.5 big bets. I admit that villain needs to fold very rarely to make this correct if it wins me the whole pot, but I have Queen-High and feel that I'm pretty unlikely to get the 5 big bets in the main at this point regardless of what villain does.
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:06 PM   #6
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Oooh, I forgot there was an all in. I guess that makes a fairly big difference. Betting the flop is fine, you're doing it for value. I'd probably just keep the lead on the turn also.

I still think betting the river is fine, though I guess you beat the allin hand only about 2% of the time. I just think other guy with a live hand and chips is folding to a river bet a fairly high % of the time, and as far as image-building goes, this is a spot that's sure to pay off in the future if he does show down A3 or something like that.


edit to add: The turn is a weird spot. Online when you check here you'll get a free card like 10% of the time, but I suppose in a passive live game it's gonna check through a LOT. I would say the only reason to bet the turn is to preserve your river bluffing implied odds. So, my new advice is check the turn if you don't intend on bluffing a blank river.

Last edited by boc4life; 11-15-2008 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:36 PM   #7
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

I think I like a 3-bet preflop. Q-high has some modicum of showdown value against all-in guy, and the loose players who love to cold-call will have a much more difficult time taking three to the face rather than two. Plus you have a TAG in the BB who will likely fold, leaving you HU with an all-in guy and somewhere between 40-55% equity if not more hopefully + .75 BBs from the blinds. And worst case someone takes three to the face, you have a hand that plays well in a large multiway pot.
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:07 AM   #8
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by private joker View Post
I think I like a 3-bet preflop. Q-high has some modicum of showdown value against all-in guy, and the loose players who love to cold-call will have a much more difficult time taking three to the face rather than two. Plus you have a TAG in the BB who will likely fold, leaving you HU with an all-in guy and somewhere between 40-55% equity if not more hopefully + .75 BBs from the blinds. And worst case someone takes three to the face, you have a hand that plays well in a large multiway pot.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing today. Might have to do some pokerstove to see how you stack up against all-in's range, but putting in 3sb and then getting a 1sb rebate with 1.5sb of free overlay is pretty sweet. Don't know if it's better than cc'ing or just plain folding, because there are still 3 players left to act behind you that could still wake up with a real hand.

As played, I thought all 3 postflop streets could go either way. At the time, I thought the flop bet was super-bad in an empty sidepot with very little showdown value vs. all-in, but if you can get 2+ callers or people like to play fit or fold, I guess it's fine.

Once you get 2 callers on the flop, I thought turn and river were interesting and pretty close.
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Old 11-16-2008, 06:00 AM   #9
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

1. I admit preflop is close and actually quite interesting.

2. If (1) is true, how on Earth is betting into a dry side pot with 2 overs and a flush draw bad on a 5 high flop? Anyone who calls with less than a set is getting ass-raped and I supposedly had enough equity against all in guy to 3-bet and the flop came blank, blank, blank. Did I only have enough equity if I flopped good? Cause...I did...

3. We have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what the all in player's range is. It could almost ATC, or it could be like JJ+ AK. We literally have no idea.

4. Orange guy is not a normal human being. He has 8 chips cut off. If I put 12 out there I'll lay your 3 or 4 to 1 he calls it anyway.
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Old 11-16-2008, 08:39 PM   #10
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

I don't think 1 & 2 are related. 3-betting preflop isolates the 1.5sb of dead money for basically the cost of 2-betting. Once you cold-call and it goes 4-way, the game state is completely different and you are basically playing a new game against the other 3 players who have money left.

Obviously if the pot is $0 (in this case the sidepot), then putting any money in except with the nuts would be bad. It'd be like playing LHE with no blinds, you would never play anything but AA. Also because nobody should be calling/raising you except with the nuts.

This case is different because there is a main pot, and at the time I didn't realize that that would induce looser calls on the flop.

So I changed my mind and think betting it is OK because you'll get worse hands (hands with worse pot equity than yours) to call.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:41 PM   #11
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by private joker View Post
I think I like a 3-bet preflop. Q-high has some modicum of showdown value against all-in guy, and the loose players who love to cold-call will have a much more difficult time taking three to the face rather than two. Plus you have a TAG in the BB who will likely fold, leaving you HU with an all-in guy and somewhere between 40-55% equity if not more hopefully + .75 BBs from the blinds. And worst case someone takes three to the face, you have a hand that plays well in a large multiway pot.

This and bet the river because you have Q high and betting Q high is good for the soul.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:13 PM   #12
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Your soul must be in fantastic shape.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:44 PM   #13
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

I like your preflop play since you have dudes telegraphing. Otherwise this is a clear FOLD. I cannot fathom 3-betting here. You are in way too early position to try to take this head's up against an allin. All your blinds overlay value will be destroyed because more often than not, you will not get it heads up.

Flop bet is good. It was for value. Now the turn missed you, so your bet is no longer for value, so you should check. The only justification for betting the turn is to pick up the side pot and maybe clean up some outs, but you are only getting 1.5:1, and that is not a good enough price Imo.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:09 AM   #14
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

On the turn, assuming neither villain nor the Captain has more than one pair, are the following points true:

1. If they both call, I have 15 outs to win, and thus my bet is even money.
2. If either of them fold, there is a good chance it improves my equity (as any two cards in the deck are either beating me or have at least 6 outs) and I still have 15 outs to win, thus losing only 1/3rd of a big bet on the bet against the caller.
3. If they both fold, I am happy.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:58 PM   #15
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

I would not 3 bet preflop with Q-10 suited.
Last thing I want to do is play Q-10 with a cap and that
you set yourself up for. I probably am calling as I expect a multi
way pot and that hand plays well multi way.
I like the flop bet - it may wipe out a KQ or the like
giving you more outs and builds a pot for if you hit your draw.
The turn is debatable but I agree with you I think I'd bet
but once you bet the turn I think you're committed to bet
the river. You have no other chance to win at this point
and you have built a decent side pot.
Orange shirt from your description could be calling with something
like A5 (playing off the 6-4-3 version of the flop) and mucks to
a river bet. If he raises you muck.
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Old 11-20-2008, 03:39 AM   #16
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Re: Captain R said this was interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by taz13 View Post
If he raises you muck.
You mean I shouldn't call a river raise with queen high? **** that's what I've been doing wrong all this time!
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